New campaign, Core + ONE acessory

[Rystil Arden]

Damnit - stop encouraging them! Next thing tyou know, DMs and players won't be coming here to provide one-sided versions of their problems and vilifying those that disagree, and what's the fun in that?

You're right! And we'll never get a laugh when both sides come in separately, glare at the other side, and set up separate threads where they backhandedly attack each other in a biased fashion. This thread is a bad example for all, I say!

 

[buzz]

Buzz, I fundamentally disagree with you about whether allowing unfettered access to cleric spells is unbalancing. Here's how I see it: the cleric (already probably the strongest class) has a variety of spells in the PHB, some of which are strong and some of which are weak, and which have a certain cross-section of utility. By freely adding any new cleric spell that is published, you allow the player an unlimited ability to increase the utility of their spell selection; they can still do all the stuff they could before, but now they have a whole lot more things that they can do, and there's no tradeoff or cost for that additional flexibility and power. That's a real concern for me.

Okay, I think this is what Rystil was getting at (as he says upthread), and clarifies the issue for me.

I'm still not sure I'd change my stance, though, because there's still the issue of their daily spell limits. Even with a ridiculously high Wis, a cleric still won't have more than 7-8 spells of a given level prepared, 5 if we're talking the higher levels. The question is, if a savvy player can already cherry-pick the 5-6 PHB spells per level that totally rawk, are you really throwing things out of whack if some of those spells now happen to come from another book?

I mean, just looking at the PHB, there are a bunch of spells, but only a small percentage of them are worth preparing on a regular basis. Even adding in a tome like SpC, are you really dramatically changing the landscape? This being D&D, a good chunk of those spells are never going to get used, while a tiny chunk are going to get used all the time.

Ergo, it seems to me like unrestricted access and one-for-one swap basically wash. So, I err on the option that invovles less work and (IMO) more fun: do whatever you want, but be willing to compromise if the game starts to break.

There's a second reason too, truth be told: allowing unlimited access to spells can create a quagmire of indecision come spell preparation time.

This I can agree with. Ideally though, the player should be learning the good and bad choices as they go, or else realize, "Hey, I have no aptitiude for sifting through all of this." Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.

 

[BlueBlackRed]

Damnit - stop encouraging them! Next thing tyou know, DMs and players won't be coming here to provide one-sided versions of their problems and vilifying those that disagree, and what's the fun in that?

Sheesh, sorry for ruining the fun.
(sniff)
I'll try harder to disagree with TheGogmagog next time.
And to make it even more entertaining for all I'll chug a full bottle of cold medicine before ranting.

 

[whydirt]

This I can agree with. Ideally though, the player should be learning the good and bad choices as they go, or else realize, "Hey, I have no aptitiude for sifting through all of this." Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.

I think the concern is less about whether or not the spells picked end up being useful, but rather that the larger number of spells to choose from will increase the time spent selecting prepared spells each game day.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Hmmm my solution to the wizard vs. cleric spell list thing is quite different than others' mentioned.

First, I start giving out wizard spells before the PC wizard actually has acess to those spell. This is helped by the fact that they can scribe spells before they are allowed to cast them. I believe that when the PC wizard in the campaign I run gains access to 6th level spells, he'll already have something like 5-6 spells already in his spellbook ready to go + the two he gets from leveling.

Secondly, I use a lot of non-Core spells. That includes spells that I've created. Every time a wizard spellbook is discovered I try to have at the very least 2 spells of my own creation in the book. The last time was something like three spellbooks each 2/3 full of spells (100 pages each), about 50% of which were non-Core spells.

Third, wizards like to trade spells. Straight up or for profit. There are always spells that individual wizards hoard, usually those that they researched themselves, but wizards are always happy to sit down and trade spells. So, if the PC wizard runs into an NPC wizard, there's lot of spell trading going around. This is much easier on the pocketbook than scrolls.

Fourth is downtime. Downtime for research, downtime for scroll making (a necessity for wizards) so that they have that versitility everyone is always clamoring about. Rarely do PC wizards actually take that research (its expensive), but its there for them. Mostly downtime is used for scroll making, which is a big part of the wizard's power. This is very important to remember.

And, I consider most of this practially a necessity for having decent wizard PCs.

 

[luke_twigger]

On the question of "does allowing access to more spells to choose from increase the power level". My opinion is yes. As evidence I'd point to the Magic the Gathering game.

Imagine a Cleric with access to PHB only to be like playing a "Standard" Magic deck (aka Type2) where you build a 60 card deck from a card pool of ~2000. A Cleric with access to PHB + Spell Compendium might be more like "Extended" Magic with a card pool of ~4000. And a Cleric who could choose any printed spell would be "Vintage" (aka Type1) Magic with a card pool of ~10,000.

In all 3 cases a Cleric has to pray for a finite number of spells per day or in Magic build a 60 card deck. And I know for a fact that Type1 >> Extended >> Type2.

 

[buzz]

On the question of "does allowing access to more spells to choose from increase the power level". My opinion is yes. As evidence I'd point to the Magic the Gathering game.

M:tG is a whole 'nother beast, though.

If anything, providing free access to books like SpC increases the number of poor choices the player can possibly make. If we assume that PHB spells obey the ol' 80/20 rule (20% of the spells get used 80% of the time), I'm willing to wager that adding spells from supplements either keeps the ratio the same, or even shifts it towards 90/10.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

M:tG is a whole 'nother beast, though.

If anything, providing free access to books like SpC increases the number of poor choices the player can possibly make. If we assume that PHB spells obey the ol' 80/20 rule (20% of the spells get used 80% of the time), I'm willing to wager that adding spells from supplements either keeps the ratio the same, or even shifts it towards 90/10.

And which spells do you think the Cleric will choose then? I'm guessing that it'll be the most powerful spells that are getting used most often. If he is preparing those spells instead of PHB spells then you would expect them to be ""better" spells. Therefore, logically the character is more powerful than before.

If you add in the added utility that these spells provide then it just adds to his benefits. This is especially the case when the cleric has an idea of what sorts of spells may be more useful in the next 24 hours and tailors his spell list accordingly.

What is there to offset the benefits that the cleric has gained? Add this to the fact that the cleric is arguably one of the most powerful character classes going.

Olaf the Stout

 

[BlueBlackRed]

I wouldn't worry too much about the cleric or wizard players trying to "break the game".
The cleric player is still a novice with the 3.5 rules.
The wizard player sometimes strikes gold with a spell combo or two, but usually his combos are not so good (in my opinion).

 

[TheGogmagog]

The thing I find funny in thread after thread of 'Clerics of the Coast' comments. It's still the last class chosen, the last person to declare thier class grumbles, 'well I guess I'll play the cleric so our party is balanced'.

Aside from a one shot campaign where the BBEG was declared to be a Necromancer, Cleric isn't what people choose when they are thinking about thier next character. Apparently they haven't gotten to broken status, in spite of all thier advantages.