• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

New Dragon Article: Ecology of the Fire Archon

Scribble

First Post
Imban said:
Well, actually, though I took a Devil's advocate position about it a few posts up, we're really losing every single one of the monolithic forces of Good in the cosmology. From released information, we're left with... unicorns, and angels (and exarchs, maybe) of good gods. And, well, the good gods themselves. Assumedly there are angels (and exarchs, maybe) of evil gods, and as illustrated above, these might not be so much divided by type - you can easily get many of the same castes of Angels serving both good and evil gods equally.

Where are you getting this info? Have they specifically said this? My thoughts are that they will create the forces of good as well, and they will all have an equally good purpose for being that they are.

Evil is losing, what, yugoloths and demodands? Yugoloths always managed to duck having good and complete writeups, with plenty of undetailed mysterious figures - I guess that attracted some Planescape fans to them, but it just annoyed me. Meanwhile, I'd be honestly surprised if half of the D&D players I know in real life knew what Demodands even were. I think they maybe got mentioned in Manual of the Planes in 3e, and I know they got writeups in Fiend Folio that were never mentioned again, but really...

Evil has always outnumbered good in the game. It helps when your game is supposedly about heroes.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Imban

First Post
Scribble said:
Where are you getting this info? Have they specifically said this? My thoughts are that they will create the forces of good as well, and they will all have an equally good purpose for being that they are.

Nope. We've just drawn different conclusions from the released information. Maybe I'll be wrong and there will be Celestials as a force of good, rather than the whims of individual gods.

Cosmic evil actually has rarely outnumbered (or at least outpowered - in the early days, there were a heck of a lot more demons than angels, but angels were described as supremely badass) good - while there are a lot of evil and hostile mundane monsters, it was always a bit different when you got into the cosmology. But even so, that's not the issue at hand - there being nothing beyond individuals who have made the choice for good, whether it's an individual paladin order or an individual god, whereas races literally made of or devoted to evil are widespread.
 

3d6

Explorer
Beckett said:
I'll bite. What does Archon mean? What out of its various meanings make it a better fit for a race of good-aligned outsiders than elemental warriors?
The definition you're normally going to find in dictionaries is "magistrate or government official in ancient Athens or ancient Greece".

According to Wikipedia, in gnostic Christianity, archons are "several servants of the Demiurge, the 'creator god', that stood between the human race and a transcendent God that could only be reached through gnosis. In this context they have the role of the angels and demons of the Old Testament."
 
Last edited:

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Guardian Angels?

If we're calling warriors Angels and the protectives Guardian Angels, that kind of smacks of unnecessary redundancy and causes unnecessary confusion. We could call one Warrior Angels and one Guardian Angels, but that would imply a relationship between them, and the existence of other kinds of angels. Then we're back to the proliferation of outsider creatures that 4e is trying to cut back on.

Or, here's a good idea: Why not call one of them 'Archons'?

I'll bite. What does Archon mean? What out of its various meanings make it a better fit for a race of good-aligned outsiders than elemental warriors?

The gnostic history is the best case. They're another word for "angels" or "demons" or "devils" or "asuras" or "devas" or "daemons" or "demodands." In other words, all things that are of the unseen world of the gods. Specifically, in the gnostic worldview, they're servants of the Creator God, but they're the same thing as any of these. These fiery humanoids aren't any kind of servants to any higher being. They might be forced into servitude by their creator, but even there the article even points out that they specifically are not compelled to do it. They aren't servants, especially not of some deific creature.

But the gnostic history isn't the only case. The term in general echoes the Greek from which it comes as a nobility, as a high-rank, as something higher up the chain than you. This all implies creatures from a higher plane of existence. A created race (like these new monsters) are quite obviously NOT higher up on the scale of thinigs. They must be lower -- we've created them. Of course, even that might be workable, if the creatures held immense, nearly-godlike power, but the examples were all under CR 10. If their place in 4e remains about the same, we have adventurers "higher up" than them at a very early point in the game.

To add to the term's weight, the Greek origins fit firmly in the scale developed by Pseudo-Dionysus, where names like "Dominions," "Thrones," and "Principalities" are thrown around. "Archon," in the sense that it means "Ruler" matches with the meanings of these phrases as well. These cinderkin aren't associated with nobility and they aren't associated with power, and they aren't associated with beings like angels and demons and devas and asuras, but the word "Archon" IS.

"Archon" is obviously a good alternate name for "Angels." It would work in other ways, too, but using it for a caste of warrior-celestials is about as accuate as using "dragon" to mean "magical skittle-lizards of the elements," so it pretty much passes the D&D litmus test for "Does it make sense to call it this?"

Now, the cinderkin could be called "Archons" under the right circumstances. For instance, armored beings of flame that serve the gods as warriors? PERFECT. But that's not what they are. They're Frankenstein Elementals. Which is neat, but it's not an Archon. Archon isn't a very narrow term, it could accomodate a lot. This is not something it can easily accomodate without just being "neat-sounding gobbledeygook." Which, judging by what the article said, was pretty much the criteria for them being called "archons."

I think, quite possibly, the Gnostic idea was the source inspiration for the original Archons. However, unfortunately this idea was never really pushed in the game. The idea was taken, and the creatures became servants of good with no real background. So unfortunately a cool idea got turned into simply "Dog headed celestials."
...
So all we're really loosing is a dog headed thing dog headed for a reason lost to gamers sometime long ago, but we're gaining a creature with a purpose and a myth closer to the inspirational source.

This is missing the point that it's not about the specific dog-headed celestial. I can see a place for Hound Archons, but they were one creature out of a pretty large host, most of which did not have animal features. They didn't have much background or traction as a race, but that's the kind of thing that new editions fix all the time, so the question would be "how do we make them kick more butt?" So drop the dog head if people have problems with it. I don't care. What I do care about is keeping alive D&D's grand tradition of mythological cherry-picking and reference to human legend throughout the ages. Archons as warrior-angels preserved that. Archons as Elemental Frankenstein doesn't.

The new creature is cool, but it doesn't really make sense to call it an "Archon" in any sense of the term, either as an angel-equivalent, as an agent of deception a la gnosticism, or as any kind of leader or ruler or higher-ranked individual.

It makes about as much sense as calling halflings jedi because "jedi" sounds cool and "halfling" doesn't. Halflings don't have anything to do with anything that jedi are. These Frankenstein Elementals don't have anything to do with anything that "archons" have ever been. Angelic warriors, however, would. That's why it suits angelic warriors better than frankenstein elementals.
 

Scribble

First Post
Imban said:
Nope. We've just drawn different conclusions from the released information. Maybe I'll be wrong and there will be Celestials as a force of good, rather than the whims of individual gods.

I hope there are both?

Cosmic evil actually has rarely outnumbered (or at least outpowered - in the early days, there were a heck of a lot more demons than angels, but angels were described as supremely badass) good - while there are a lot of evil and hostile mundane monsters, it was always a bit different when you got into the cosmology. But even so, that's not the issue at hand - there being nothing beyond individuals who have made the choice for good, whether it's an individual paladin order or an individual god, whereas races literally made of or devoted to evil are widespread.

Again, it helps when your game is about players assuming the roles of heroes fighting evil.
 


Scribble

First Post
Kamikaze Midget said:
If we're calling warriors Angels and the protectives Guardian Angels, that kind of smacks of unnecessary redundancy and causes unnecessary confusion. We could call one Warrior Angels and one Guardian Angels, but that would imply a relationship between them, and the existence of other kinds of angels. Then we're back to the proliferation of outsider creatures that 4e is trying to cut back on.

Not really. 4e seems to be trying to cut back on celestial beings for the sake of celestial beings. Warrior Angel, and Guardian Angel would each serve a role. Separate roles, instead of the same one with a different paint job.



The gnostic history is the best case. They're another word for "angels" or "demons" or "devils" or "asuras" or "devas" or "daemons" or "demodands." In other words, all things that are of the unseen world of the gods...

But the gnostic history isn't the only case. The term in general echoes the Greek from which it comes as a nobility, as a high-rank, as something higher up the chain than you... [/quote]

They are creatures from the outer planes. The greek use seems less of a match.

"Archon" is obviously a good alternate name for "Angels." It would work in other ways, too, but using it for a caste of warrior-celestials is about as accuate as using "dragon" to mean "magical skittle-lizards of the elements," so it pretty much passes the D&D litmus test for "Does it make sense to call it this?"

The creator god is the antithesis of the true god. (in Gnostic beliefs.) The Para-elementals were/are the antithesis of the D&D gods.

Archons fighting gods seems a lot more in line with the source then Archons suddenly serving gods.

This is missing the point that it's not about the specific dog-headed celestial. I can see a place for Hound Archons, but they were one creature out of a pretty large host, most of which did not have animal features. They didn't have much background or traction as a race, but that's the kind of thing that new editions fix all the time, so the question would be "how do we make them kick more butt?" So drop the dog head if people have problems with it. I don't care. What I do care about is keeping alive D&D's grand tradition of mythological cherry-picking and reference to human legend throughout the ages. Archons as warrior-angels preserved that. Archons as Elemental Frankenstein doesn't...

The new creature is cool, but it doesn't really make sense to call it an "Archon" in any sense of the term, either as an angel-equivalent, as an agent of deception a la gnosticism, or as any kind of leader or ruler or higher-ranked individual.

Because the dog headed Archon had already lost traction. It was done, and will always be the dog headed angel thing. That was its traction really.

This new being has a new chance to create traction.

Archons in gnostic belief are celestials that serve the antithesis of the true gods.

Archons in 3e are celestial beings that serve the gods.

Archons in 4e are celestial beings that were created by the antihesis of the D&D gods.

So what that they continue the story and say the antithesis lost?

It makes about as much sense as calling halflings jedi because "jedi" sounds cool and "halfling" doesn't. Halflings don't have anything to do with anything that jedi are. These Frankenstein Elementals don't have anything to do with anything that "archons" have ever been.

They do. See above. :)

If halflings had mend powers and faught with laser swords calling them Jedi would be appropriate. Just like calling a celestial being created to serve the antithesis of the D&D gods Archons is appropriate.
 

kennew142

First Post
Imban said:
Well, actually, though I took a Devil's advocate position about it a few posts up, we're really losing every single one of the monolithic forces of Good in the cosmology. From released information, we're left with... unicorns, and angels (and exarchs, maybe) of good gods. And, well, the good gods themselves. Assumedly there are angels (and exarchs, maybe) of evil gods, and as illustrated above, these might not be so much divided by type - you can easily get many of the same castes of Angels serving both good and evil gods equally.

Evil is losing, what, yugoloths and demodands? Yugoloths always managed to duck having good and complete writeups, with plenty of undetailed mysterious figures - I guess that attracted some Planescape fans to them, but it just annoyed me. Meanwhile, I'd be honestly surprised if half of the D&D players I know in real life knew what Demodands even were. I think they maybe got mentioned in Manual of the Planes in 3e, and I know they got writeups in Fiend Folio that were never mentioned again, but really...

Just for the record, demodands were very major players in the Shackled City adventure path. I am led to believe that this was a fairly popular adventure. They also make an appearance in Age of Worms.

I guess everyone has their own preferences in campaign design and playing style, so we'll never come to an agreement here. As for myself, I have never used any of the clestials in any game I've ever run. My campaigns are about the player characters, humans and human-like mortals, facing down the forces of evil. I don't run campaigns in which evil PCs storm the vaults of heaven, nor where the PCs work as side-kicks to ubercelestials who are fighting the forces of darkness. The focus of the campaign has always been on the PCs.

I'm not saying that powerful celestials don't have a place in the background of some campaigns. I'm just saying that I've never found them useful as a creature type in any game I've run. I like the PCs to feel like they're the only thing standing between humanity and the forces of evil, not just another cog in the endless array of goodness and niceness.
 

JohnSnow

Hero
3d6 said:
According to Wikipedia, in gnostic Christianity, archons are "several servants of the Demiurge, the 'creator god', that stood between the human race and a transcendent God that could only be reached through gnosis. In this context they have the role of the angels and demons of the Old Testament."

Angels AND demons? Hmm. Doesn't sound like a bad fit for creatures created by the Primordials that serve as mercenary armies.

But in the end, this really comes down to opinion. Some people clearly believe that the archons as "animal-headed angels" were a sacred cow worth preserving. The designers obviously felt they'd "make fine rump roast."

If the old archons weren't one of your sacred cows, you're probably fine with this. If they were, you're probably upset.

Clearly, what we're discovering with the 4e previews is that some people felt there were a lot more "sacred cows" in the game than they were willing to admit back in 3e. The designers seem to have stuck with the following ones:

Core concept: Medieval, Fantasy Roleplaying
Base mechanics: d20, high rolls are good, classes, levels, and fantasy races.
"Iconic" races: Humans, elves, dwarves, halflings.
"Iconic" classes: Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Paladin, Ranger.
"Iconic" monsters: angels, goblinoids, orcs, kobolds, trolls, giants, dragons, demons, devils, and the D&D "specials," like the beholder, drow, owlbear, gelatinous cube, and the like.

Obviously, a lot of things that were part of the game like alignment, the Great Wheel, and a number of monsters didn't make the cut. And some races and classes were accorded lower priority, probably due to a perception of less "traction" than the ones they went with. And some of all of the above that did make the cut were considered in need of a makeover.

That's not a terrible approach to design (I think it's a good one personally), and it certainly doesn't mean the designers made "the wrong choices," but if one of the cows they turned into rump roast (or left out in the pasture for a while) was "sacred" to you, you're probably upset. And apparently, for some, that's what this Archon thing is.
 
Last edited:

IanB

First Post
You know...

Why is it necessary to name these broad categories at all? I mean, besides "we've always done it that way."

Why do we need more granular terms for the general category of 'divine servant beings' than just "angels" or even "divine servants"?
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top