New Faction Rank Document!

[Pauper]

FWIW, I'm told that the "500 downtime days" thing is going to be reduced in the next season's player's guide. It probably hasn't been that high of a priority, what with the lack of actual tier 4 play until very recently.

I've read that, too -- but that's not the point I'm making. Someone should have done the basic math to figure how much downtime your typical 16th level character built via AL play actually has, then made the announcement appropriately. What it looks like is that someone figured out that the jump from Tier 1 to Tier 2 'catching up' was a factor of 5, so that should work just fine for the jump from Tier 2 to Tier 3 'catching up', too. Regardless of whether it was just lazy or the result of someone coming up with something quick to meet a deadline, it shouldn't have happened, and it doesn't reflect well on the WotC staff who signed off on it.

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Pauper

 

[Warmaster Horus]

That's exactly the point -- the more you open up the game to min-maxing and other optimization games, the less attractive it becomes to new players who aren't already committed to that playstyle.

Given that recent changes to AL were given as a way for WotC to prioritize the AL experience, I have to wonder if these changes aren't going to end up working at cross-purposes to their stated intent with those changes.

On the other hand, if the first couple of seasons of AL modules are basically rendered obsolete by the new faction rules, then I guess there will be less of an outcry when they are eventually retired.

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Pauper

I think the 'magic store' comes in at a rank too early, but I don't really see much problem with it where it is. Players who want magic weapons are going to get them by trading, DM Rewards, playing the right mod or the like.

As for optimization driving players away, well, haven't seen it myself and we have five full AL tables every Wednesday night at my FLGS. I DM'd dozens of hours of mods at Gamehole Con where the expanded AL hall was PACKED with players for three straight days. We're moving to yet bigger accommodations next year and adding an AL-only Con in the spring. I had tables with new players running pregens and old grognards running killer builds and none of that mattered - everyone was having a good time, enjoying the story telling & table community and having fun playing their characters.

 

[rooneg]

I've read that, too -- but that's not the point I'm making. Someone should have done the basic math to figure how much downtime your typical 16th level character built via AL play actually has, then made the announcement appropriately. What it looks like is that someone figured out that the jump from Tier 1 to Tier 2 'catching up' was a factor of 5, so that should work just fine for the jump from Tier 2 to Tier 3 'catching up', too. Regardless of whether it was just lazy or the result of someone coming up with something quick to meet a deadline, it shouldn't have happened, and it doesn't reflect well on the WotC staff who signed off on it.

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Pauper

Honestly, there are always going to be bugs in any of these systems. I'm relatively pleased at the rate at which they seem to fix the issues that come up. Do I wish the problems didn't exist in the first place? Sure, but I can understand it not being a part of the system that got a whole lot of thought when it first came out, since most players just don't get to that level. As usual, levels 1-10 get the most energy, because that's where most play actually happens. The fact that tiers 3 and 4 are getting some love at all is exciting to me (or, well, it would be if I had any tier 3 or 4 characters!).

 

[Steve_MND]

While I can see why they'd want to do this, stuff like opening up the magic store goes against the very design of the game, much less the campaign, and doesn't necessarily make it a better experience for the people they really want to attract [...] Time will tell, of course, but it's not an encouraging first step.

Ah, I see what you mean, yes.

Well, unfortunately, some elements, like the magic store, etc., are already effectively just a progression in an already done deal. That cat was let out of the bag when the modules that were being offered slowly started with their own power creep in terms of rewards, etc. (as we've discussed elsewhere), and once started that cannot reverse direction -- it's only a one-way street from there on out, and the only thing you can do (short of a complete wipe) is to try and mitigate or halt the speed at which it increases.

With stuff like the magic store, I can only hope that they mean to provide a way for the 'little guys' to get back on a more stable footing with the rest, equipment-wise, and then once everything is again (more) equal, they can use that as a stable platform going forward.

I don't think that'll happen tho, since once that inclined is started, it requires constant supervision to ensure it doesn't get worse. But we'll see.

In a related thread, one of the reasons why some of our group are looking at indie OP campaigns like Greyhawk Reborn, etc., is because we liked what we saw in that the magic item 'power creep' was much lower there that the runaway train that is AL. The promise of a lower fecundity of magic items was one of the things that we all liked in 5e.

 

[rooneg]

With stuff like the magic store, I can only hope that they mean to provide a way for the 'little guys' to get back on a more stable footing with the rest, equipment-wise, and then once everything is again (more) equal, they can use that as a stable platform going forward.

FWIW, I don't see this as being a big problem at all. Hardcore AL minmaxers can already get their friends to run them through cherry picked adventures to pick up the best loot, or even cherry picked chapters from the hardcovers for even more absurd stuff. A couple of cloaks of protection and +1 weapons are not going to even show up on their radar. On top of that, there is a cost to using this feature (on top of the downtime and gold cost), it means you're holding an untradable, irrevocable magic item that will forever fill up a magic item slot, which means you're less likely to have dibs on the cool item you actually encounter during play. It's the same issue that comes up for magic items added via DM rewards. In many cases that item will eventually be out of date, but you'll still have it there on your log sheet. Not saying it's useless (you can always loan it to another PC who needs it), but it's certainly not going to be as useful as it is on day one.

 

[Steve_MND]

No, I don't see it as a huge problem, either, just one of intent as opposed to application, I suppose.

What i would like to see, tho, is some of the older mods starting to be retired here, so we can start taking them out of circulation. In fact, I would love to see a blanket retiring of season 1-3 offerings, come January 1st, to get all that all out of the system so it can breathe more easily going forward. Mind you, I don't see that happening whatsoever, and i'm not sure a shift of that magnitude so quickly would even solve more problems that it would cause, but one can always daydream...

 

[rooneg]

No, I don't see it as a huge problem, either, just one of intent as opposed to application, I suppose.

What i would like to see, tho, is some of the older mods starting to be retired here, so we can start taking them out of circulation. In fact, I would love to see a blanket retiring of season 1-3 offerings, come January 1st, to get all that all out of the system so it can breathe more easily going forward. Mind you, I don't see that happening whatsoever, and i'm not sure a shift of that magnitude so quickly would even solve more problems that it would cause, but one can always daydream...

I presume that will happen eventually, although it's too bad, since some of them are pretty sweet (independent of the cool loot they provide). Honestly, they're already heavily incentivizing you to run the current season via DM Quests (a bunch of them are current season only) and DM Rewards (the earlier seasons are super stingy on the XP/Gold for the DM, and for unfathomable reasons they haven't just bit the bullet and let you optionally use the rewards listed in the season's DM's Guide instead of the ones on the adventure if the adventure's are lower).

 

[warfteiner]

Hey folks -

We haven't put any considerable amount of time into discussing the retirement of older adventures. It's come up before but really: we're not keen on it. Not saying that it will NEVER happen, but I'm saying that it's not currently planned.

The magic item rewards for factions were pretty intensely discussed internally. What we found, though, is that the introduction of these items leads to players feeling more invested and better-recognized in-game - which leads to better player retention. The cert & slot systems in the adventures leads to an upholding of design intention, but leaves us with a critical opportunity: making players feel rewarded. Many of the items selected for adventures were chosen because of flavor or thematic appropriateness, but this is still a dice game. Allowing the players to earn minor numeric upgrades (+1 weapons, +1 armors, etc) goes a long way towards helping players build a sense of "win".

As for the 500 downtime days (between tier 3 and tier 4) "going away" or "being lowered"... this may be a thing. It IS pretty high, but -if- it gets adjusted it will likely remain as a significant investment. Discussions are ongoing.

 

[Pauper]

We haven't put any considerable amount of time into discussing the retirement of older adventures. It's come up before but really: we're not keen on it. Not saying that it will NEVER happen, but I'm saying that it's not currently planned.

Fair enough. Given the comments I made previously in the thread regarding the faction changes impacting old design principles, I suspect that within a year, the only Season 1 mods to be run even semi-regularly will be those that have secret missions, to allow 'unlocking' of the magic item store.

The magic item rewards for factions were pretty intensely discussed internally. What we found, though, is that the introduction of these items leads to players feeling more invested and better-recognized in-game - which leads to better player retention.

I'm curious how you 'found' this out -- are you doing some sort of internal playtest with this new material, and if so, on which population are you testing with? Or was there some mechanic in, say, the D&D Open that mimicked this effect?

I would believe you if you said you 'believe' that introducing magic item rewards for factions would increase player retention, but it seems strange to talk about it as if you've tested it and have data to show that it's a real effect. I'd argue that, if you're going by the response to the D&D Open as a way of measuring player retention, the folks playing in that event are not a representative sample of AL players worldwide; *any* reward mechanic would grade out as showing increased player retention, since the players who are motivated enough to travel to conventions and sign up to play in special events are the ones who already have the most 'buy-in' to the campaign. Plus you're ignoring the other side of the coin -- if you increase player retention, but in a way that also increases the barriers to new players entering the campaign, have you really improved the overall standing of the campaign?

Allowing the players to earn minor numeric upgrades (+1 weapons, +1 armors, etc) goes a long way towards helping players build a sense of "win".

And quickly establishing an expectation that a level 5 or 6 character 'should' have a +1 weapon, and by level 7 should also have +1 armor. Players who lack the opportunity to achieve these milestones, either because they choose not to pursue them or because they are 'casual' enough not to be able to ensure they can play in the adventures that unlock those options, are going to feel left out and believe that the campaign doesn't care about their style of play. And that will not improve retention, given that part of the draw of Adventurers League to this point is that it hasn't emphasized numerical advantages and optimization over other playstyles.

Again, time will tell, but I'm not convinced that this is going to end up being the unmitigated 'win' that you believe it will be.

As for the 500 downtime days (between tier 3 and tier 4) "going away" or "being lowered"... I'm not sure where you heard that. This number was selected to better keep DMs in-line with their players should they choose to be, and we haven't really discussed modifying it.

You might want to talk to Greg, then.


http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?504268-Backend-SKT-Module-Info-Released&p=6956741&viewfull=1#post6956741

Edit: The reason the 500 downtime days seems problematic is based on simple math -- it would take 100 2-hour adventures for a player to reach 500 downtime days, assuming that character doesn't spend any of those days on other things (such as catching up at level 5 or 11); a character will reach level 17 after roughly 52-68 2-hour adventures (presuming it takes roughly 10-12 such adventures to get through tier 1, 18-24 to get through tier 2, and 24-32 to get through tier 3 -- if my math is wrong, I apologize, but based on logsheets I've seen this appears to be a ballpark estimate), or even fewer if AL adventures are combined with hard-cover adventures, since the 'chapter' method of awarding downtime awards an even lower ratio of downtime days compared to XP.

250 downtime days would be a more achievable total, as well as commensurate with existing rules regarding acquiring tool proficiencies or languages via downtime.

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Pauper

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Hey folks -

We haven't put any considerable amount of time into discussing the retirement of older adventures. It's come up before but really: we're not keen on it. Not saying that it will NEVER happen, but I'm saying that it's not currently planned...

Glad to hear it. I'm not sure why they would need to be retired. Lots of fun content there. We're considering plugging in some 'retro' mods this month to cover folks who want to continue playing Tier II since Season 5's latest releases are Tier I mods.