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New Legends and Lore:Head of the Class

rounser

First Post
Balancing things by "days" is probably on my top-5 list of things I like least about 4e and is the closest thing to the D&D ninjas coming into your house and telling you how to play the game I can think of.
I agree; "vancian feints" are nonsense conceptually, regardless of whether it fits some unified design plan for powers.

If you must restrict the presence of a mundane combat maneuver, a better solution seems to be to give it a chance of working. Not very D&D, but neither is the branch Mearls and the 4E design team insist on going out on with "dailies."

Gah. So frustrating to see wallbangers like this. Where's the safe pair of hands that the game needs?
 
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Saeviomagy

Adventurer
I agree; "vancian feints" are nonsense conceptually, regardless of whether it fits some unified design plan for powers.

If you must restrict the presence of a mundane combat maneuver, a better solution seems to be to give it a chance of working. Not very D&D, but neither is the branch Mearls and the 4E design team insist on going out on with "dailies."

Gah. So frustrating to see wallbangers like this. Where's the safe pair of hands that the game needs?

I'm not sure I understood any of that. Could you clarify each paragraph please?
 

pemerton

Legend
All good discussions here but thought I'd mention that I could chop a tree down with a hand axe, but I could never push it over.
I don't think that either attacking a giant with an axe, or pushing one over, resembles dealing with a tree very much. Unlike the tree, the giant will respond to the axe cuts. And unlike the tree, the giant is not rooted into the ground.
 

13garth13

First Post
I don't think that either attacking a giant with an axe, or pushing one over, resembles dealing with a tree very much. Unlike the tree, the giant will respond to the axe cuts. And unlike the tree, the giant is not rooted into the ground.

Well then, how about this....throughout humankind's history, we have stalked/hunted and killed numerous creatures larger than us (bison for example), but at no point in human history has is been considered common practice (for obvious reasons.....) to try to shove over an elephant, regardless as to whether you might try to hack/spear/bludgeon it to death.

Look, some players/DMs have a sense of what is "realistic" in even a fantasy world that is quite different from what other players/DMs would find acceptable and not immersion-breaking in their games. It's up to every player and GM to draw their own lines. Me, I can grock the idea of a giant-slayer nimbly dodging the huge, crushing blows of a cloud giant and slowly hacking away at the legs and feet until the brute comes crashing down....but bulls-rushing the same immense humanoid throws my suspension of disbelieve to the ground and does un-grandma-friendly things to it (i.e. there would be one helluva penalty for such an attempt, so punatively high so as to render the odds of such an attempt succeeding truly heroic)

As I said, everyone has their own boundaries for what seems "realistic" in a D&D game, but c'mon....is a 200 lb being knocking over something that weighs 5000 lbs (I haven't looked that up, that's just me spitballing) really in the same ballpark for you as slowly hacking it to death in terms of believability? If so, then this may have to be an agree-to-disagree thang ;).

Cheers,
Colin

P.S. Yes, I know that Hercules and other such mythological figures wrestled titanic beasts to the ground....I don't want the characters that I play, and DM for (well, their players anyway) to be tantamount to demigods from mythology; they're adventurers, not superheros.
 

Lilaxe

Explorer
I don't think that either attacking a giant with an axe, or pushing one over, resembles dealing with a tree very much. Unlike the tree, the giant will respond to the axe cuts. And unlike the tree, the giant is not rooted into the ground.

You missed the point. I'll rephrase it using living creatures. I will use a stand in creature to represent the giant.

I could take an axe and kill an elephant* (that's the stand in creature for the giant) but I could not push it over.

Here is another comparison: a small child, say around 8 years old, could (if sufficiently trained) kill me with an axe. But they wouldn't stand a chance to push me over.




* assuming I was a well trained warrior
 

pemerton

Legend
You I could take an axe and kill an elephant* (that's the stand in creature for the giant) but I could not push it over.

Here is another comparison: a small child, say around 8 years old, could (if sufficiently trained) kill me with an axe. But they wouldn't stand a chance to push me over.

* assuming I was a well trained warrior
I'm not sure if it's possible to kill an elephant with a tomahawk or not. I'm pretty sure that it's not possible to kill a large whale with a tomahawk - and certainly not in the fashion that D&D combat gives us - given the lengths that whalers had to go to kill them with harpoons. That is, I've never seen a D&D combat against a giant require the PCs to restrain and tire the giant for hours before it gets too exhausted to resist someone going in to deliver a killing blow (probably with a weapon other than a handaxe).

In D&D a fighter of equal hit dice to a lion has a good chance of beating that lion in combat, even if unarmed and unarmoured. I don't think this corresponds to much in real life.

As for pushing over - a small child probably could push you over if you weren't stationary but moving, and it struck you or impeded you at the right time. (I've certainly stumbled over my own children, but - perhaps because they're not trying to bring about this result - I've never actually been brought down by them.) Certainly, the AD&D game rules allow halfiing, goblins or kobolds to overbear humans, hobgoblins or orcs.

10th+ level fighters, in AD&D, can reliably survive falls of 100' or more and survive gouts of dragon fire while chained to cliff faces. If the "ridiculous" (which is the term ExploderWizard used upthread, at post 73) includes those same PCs pushing gianst over cliffs, I don't see how all this other stuff - which includes killing elephants with knives in mere minutes of combat - gets a free pass!
 


Regarding the golem...

It's not the edition that's the issue, it's the focus of the adventure and adventurers.

What is their goal?


If the goal is to kill the golem, then yes, the rogue will not be as capable of completing that goal. If the goal is to get the treasure the golem is guarding, then the rogue might steal it, while the fighter might kill the golem and simply take it.


There is often discussion about how classes are balanced in older editions based upon what they can do in or out of combat (rogue v. fighter) and power across all lvls (mage v. fighter). However, the problem occurs with our current style and focus. If we consider the goal to be combat, then earlier editions seem imbalanced. If we consider the goal to "adventure" which includes exploration, social interplay, and treasure, then the way to reach goals is more balanced. D&D, when played well, is not just "kill things and take their stuff."

If the goal is to be about combat, then it is important to be balanced for combat. This was a major (likely unintentional) effect of dropping xp for treasure and making it xp for monsters only. The goal (of leveling up) became framed around combat as a result. Balance became viewed as "balance in combat" as the chief goal was "defeat monsters in combat". Lots of the 4e preview materials touted the importance of combat (but the problem was already a focus in many WotC modules...this may not have been as obvious to people such as myself who mainly used non WotC adventures, including Dungeon mag).


In the end, regardless of system, a good DM can create adventures with every system by making the goals more than just combat. However, different systems might be more fun and provide more options out of combat than others.

Importantly, making a game balanced so that everyone is effective in combat makes that the obvious way to solve most goals. Why should the rogue sneak past the golem. He can just kill it.

If everyone CAN fight, then everyone WILL fight.
 

pemerton

Legend
If we consider the goal to be combat, then earlier editions seem imbalanced.

<snip>

D&D, when played well, is not just "kill things and take their stuff."

<snip>

Importantly, making a game balanced so that everyone is effective in combat makes that the obvious way to solve most goals. Why should the rogue sneak past the golem. He can just kill it.

If everyone CAN fight, then everyone WILL fight.
I think there are (at least) two ways of thinking about combat. in a mainstream fantasy RPG like D&D. One way is thinking of combat as a means to an end - say, killing things as a way to get their stuff.

Another way is to see combat as a particularly engaging expression of confict, and therefore a compelling site of conflict resolution. (It probably goes against board rules to canvass the full range of reasons why some of us would see combat this way - but as well as problematic political reasons, there might be the desire to capture or share the aesthetic of Arthurian legend, of superhero comics, etc.)

The second approach to combat ticks the box of not being about killing things and taking their stuff. But it still makes combat balance important.

I think that 4e is a good system for this second approach. I don't think it's such a good system for the first approach, because levelling in 4e, and getting items, isn't really a reward (despite the chapter heading in the DMG) - it's an inherent part of PC building.

If I wanted to play a "kill thing to take their stuff" game, I think that AD&D (if I was being serious) or even Tunnels and Trolls (if I was being lighthearted) might be a better vehicle than 4e. Maybe 3E also - I don't know it well enough to have such a strong view about it. Or even Rolemaster, if I was prepared to have high PC turnover at the lower levels.

Which is not to say that AD&D is suited only for killing things and taking their stuff. But loot in AD&D really is a type of reward for the players, I think, in a way that it is not in 4e.
 

Well, to be clear, I'm not saying 4e is a game of "kill things and take their stuff"...I certainly expect that your games (from what you've said Pemerton) are nothing like that, nor are they solely combat (which I also don't think 4e is).

On the one hand, I think that the rewards, including story, magical items, and xp have increasingly focused on rewarding combat, not only by way of editions, but also by trends in adventures and from perspectives of people editorializing what their games are over time. I don't think this is driven by edition, but by an "evolution of focus".


On the other hand, I do think that 4e might pull more for this, by virtue of its being so good.

I hadn't even realized it when I started my prior post, but by the end, it had occurred to me: 4e did a great job making combat balanced and fun for all roles in a party...and that might have been a bad thing.

Now, that's overly dramatic, I think, what I really mean is that the good thing might have had some bad sideffects.

There are often complaints against 4e regarding lack of roleplaying or things to do outside of combat. These complaints are missing a few points, but I think I've noticed something new (new to me anyway) that approaches this critique from another angle.

2 things:

1. The first is Kamikaze Midget's post eariler in this thread. Rituals and skill challenges are very clumsy rule sets, in my opinion. Others may disagree, of course, but the fact that skill challenges have been errattaed/overhauled right out of the gate, and tweaked here and there since points that they're not perfect. But their not being perfect is glaring compared to the combat rules which are far more elegant. Here what I'm saying is the best rules in 4e are the combat rules. There ARE rules for lots of things outside of combat, but they're much clumsier.

2. Combat is balanced in 4e. Things outside of combat might not be so balanced, and indeed, some may have options where others have none (like characters who can do rituals versus those who can't). There is a group pressure for everyone to be having fun rather than sitting on the sideline (in pretty much all games). Thus, combat becomes the obvious choice. It is the place where all characters can shine.

As I mentioned with the rogue, why have one party member try to sneak when he could fail and be at risk by himself? Why not send in the whole party to take on the challenge? The rogue is discouraged from being a rogue in order to be a striker.

Now, I'm not saying that it's a big problem that 4e made too good a game. I'm saying that 4e combat has the best and most balanced rules in the game and the place where all players can contribute. Outside of combat, though there are rules, they are not balanced in the same way.



But, again, it's not just about a ruleset. It's about focus. Can 4e be used for a low combat, high intrigue, game wherein the players solve mysteries and dally in noble court politics? YES.

Another quick mention is that good dming with a real world feel that every challenge is not of a challenge rating/encounter level/etc. that CAN be overcome with combat. This is, again, not a ruleset issue, but a dming issue.


I think it's a combination of recent shifts (3e and 4e) toward increased use of combat to solve problems rather than finding other solutions. I also think that the more fun combat becomes, the more people will want to spend their time doing exactly that, and so will place more focus on that as well.


To sum up my point, balance, if a focus, needs to exist both in and out of combat.
 

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