I would recommend going with 3E, which is my personal preference. 4E is indeed simpler, but 3E offers much greater customization and many more options. It is also much more simulationist - meaning the rules are a better approximation of the game world which will make it easier to visualize: In 4E, for example, the statistics of the same monster change depending on the level of the party as the monster turns from the metagame solo concept to the metagame minion concept as the party rises in level - this is something I could not accept conceptually - your mileage may vary though.
-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
New player asking for some advice/help, please. 3e vs 4e. Which one is for me?
- Thread starter ZombieMaster
- Start date
Leif
Adventurer
Observations
Pathfinder (Beta) is indeed available for free download at the moment, I think. The downside of Pathfinder is that while the book is basically Paizo's version of the PH, they have no Monster Manaul, no DM Guide, or certainly none of the myriad Complete.... series available for 3.xx. This same thing appllies to 4E, but new 4E material is being released almost every month. So, at this rate, 4E will catch and possibly surpass 3.xx in a very few years.
I am familiar with both systems (and Pathfinder). I like both systems (and Pathfinder). I don't think that 4E stymies creativity, because the creativity does not come from the system, it comes from the player. I will say that, for now at least, 3.xx has a much broader supply of monsters available to the DM. But, realistically, even one Monster Manual has more material than even a Superhuman DM could possibly use in a year or two of play. (And we all aspire to be that Superhuman DM, I know...)
So, I leave you with the way that I have answered this question for myself: I STRADDLE THE FENCE AND PLAY BOTH 3.5 AND 4E AS MUCH AND AS OFTEN AS I CAN!
But, having said that, I realize that the expense of the books may be a limiting factor for very much of this sort of behavior. And, if that's the case, my suggestion is that you go to ebay, and bargain-hunt. Anyway, my advice is this -- pick a system, either system. Read it, learn it, play it, but don't actually LIVE it ('cause that's just sad and weird). Then, when the new wears off, switch to the other system. "Wizards" will love you.
Pathfinder (Beta) is indeed available for free download at the moment, I think. The downside of Pathfinder is that while the book is basically Paizo's version of the PH, they have no Monster Manaul, no DM Guide, or certainly none of the myriad Complete.... series available for 3.xx. This same thing appllies to 4E, but new 4E material is being released almost every month. So, at this rate, 4E will catch and possibly surpass 3.xx in a very few years.
I am familiar with both systems (and Pathfinder). I like both systems (and Pathfinder). I don't think that 4E stymies creativity, because the creativity does not come from the system, it comes from the player. I will say that, for now at least, 3.xx has a much broader supply of monsters available to the DM. But, realistically, even one Monster Manual has more material than even a Superhuman DM could possibly use in a year or two of play. (And we all aspire to be that Superhuman DM, I know...)
So, I leave you with the way that I have answered this question for myself: I STRADDLE THE FENCE AND PLAY BOTH 3.5 AND 4E AS MUCH AND AS OFTEN AS I CAN!
But, having said that, I realize that the expense of the books may be a limiting factor for very much of this sort of behavior. And, if that's the case, my suggestion is that you go to ebay, and bargain-hunt. Anyway, my advice is this -- pick a system, either system. Read it, learn it, play it, but don't actually LIVE it ('cause that's just sad and weird). Then, when the new wears off, switch to the other system. "Wizards" will love you.
Dragonbait
Explorer
Since there are a lot of people with great points on each system, I'll address the werewolf bard:
You can create this character in either system. The issues arise with how werewolf-y you want the character to be.
A shifter Bard (both in the PH2) could fill this roll quickly, especially if he multiclasses druid at 1st-level to gain the wildhshape ability and at-will attack in animal form. When using the Longtooth or Razorclaw racial power you could say they enter the human-animal hybrid form. Yet this is a stand-in for a werewolf if the player is a real stickler for wanting to be a full-blown and official werewolf.
You can make the werewolf bard with the 3ed PH, MM, and DMG, and the character really will be a werewolf with the animal form, lycanthropic curse and so on. You would have to learn about racial hit dice, level adjustments, appropriate gp values for a character of higher level and so on. The player will also have to keep track of three different forms and their ability scores and powers they can use in each separate form (almost 3 character sheets if you want to take it that far). It's a much more complicated undertaking but in the end you really WILL have a werewolf bard by the rules.
You can create this character in either system. The issues arise with how werewolf-y you want the character to be.
A shifter Bard (both in the PH2) could fill this roll quickly, especially if he multiclasses druid at 1st-level to gain the wildhshape ability and at-will attack in animal form. When using the Longtooth or Razorclaw racial power you could say they enter the human-animal hybrid form. Yet this is a stand-in for a werewolf if the player is a real stickler for wanting to be a full-blown and official werewolf.
You can make the werewolf bard with the 3ed PH, MM, and DMG, and the character really will be a werewolf with the animal form, lycanthropic curse and so on. You would have to learn about racial hit dice, level adjustments, appropriate gp values for a character of higher level and so on. The player will also have to keep track of three different forms and their ability scores and powers they can use in each separate form (almost 3 character sheets if you want to take it that far). It's a much more complicated undertaking but in the end you really WILL have a werewolf bard by the rules.
Atlatl Jones
Explorer
I've played a lot of 3e and 4e, I agree with those who recommend 4e. It's really easy and fun to GM, and it's much better balanced, especially at high levels.
You said that you wanted to play a "PC werewolf/Bard fighting against a Necormancer and his legion of dead and the only thing stopping me is how much time I feel like figuring it all out." While it's true that in the 4e rules-as-written you can't do a PC werewolf/Bard, unless you get creative with the rules, in 3e you can't do it effectively either. There are rules for playing monsters, but they're terribly unbalanced; under the rules as written, a 3e werewolf bard will be a wimp who's mediocre at everything. In both 3e and 4e you're going to need to get creative with the rules to make the PC an effective werewolf/bard, so you might as well go with the more straightforward system of 4e.
The only significant complaint I had with 4e was that its magic system was too dissimilar to the D&D magic I grew up with. But since you're new to the game, that's not a consideration.
You said that you wanted to play a "PC werewolf/Bard fighting against a Necormancer and his legion of dead and the only thing stopping me is how much time I feel like figuring it all out." While it's true that in the 4e rules-as-written you can't do a PC werewolf/Bard, unless you get creative with the rules, in 3e you can't do it effectively either. There are rules for playing monsters, but they're terribly unbalanced; under the rules as written, a 3e werewolf bard will be a wimp who's mediocre at everything. In both 3e and 4e you're going to need to get creative with the rules to make the PC an effective werewolf/bard, so you might as well go with the more straightforward system of 4e.
The only significant complaint I had with 4e was that its magic system was too dissimilar to the D&D magic I grew up with. But since you're new to the game, that's not a consideration.
I recommend 4e too.
3e is a good system, and while if offers more tools for character creation, as Atlatl pointed out, they're not much help for the oddball character you're trying to make. Also, 3e is a system that gets better and more flexible over time ie, there's a lot good material in the later supplements, which represent a lot of books to buy if you're just starting out (and there's little-to-no support for outre character concepts in the PHB).
Now if you really want a system that can handle a necromancer-fightin' werewolf bard, I recommend Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition. It's technically a superhero game, but it would work for any number of genres. In fact, a guidebook for using it to run fantasy campaign has just been released.
The only drawback is M&M2e might be a bit much for someone new to pen-and-paper RPG's. It uses a point-buy character creation system, where players build by purchasing, mixing, matching, and modifying abilities/powers from a big list (or three). It's tremendously flexible, but nowhere near a beginner-friendly as a class-based game like D&D.
3e is a good system, and while if offers more tools for character creation, as Atlatl pointed out, they're not much help for the oddball character you're trying to make. Also, 3e is a system that gets better and more flexible over time ie, there's a lot good material in the later supplements, which represent a lot of books to buy if you're just starting out (and there's little-to-no support for outre character concepts in the PHB).
Now if you really want a system that can handle a necromancer-fightin' werewolf bard, I recommend Mutants and Masterminds 2nd edition. It's technically a superhero game, but it would work for any number of genres. In fact, a guidebook for using it to run fantasy campaign has just been released.
The only drawback is M&M2e might be a bit much for someone new to pen-and-paper RPG's. It uses a point-buy character creation system, where players build by purchasing, mixing, matching, and modifying abilities/powers from a big list (or three). It's tremendously flexible, but nowhere near a beginner-friendly as a class-based game like D&D.
I hadn't thought about that, with 4.0 you can't really make what the OP wants.
To some degree it depends what you want. For the specific scenario of a Werewolf Bard fighting a Necromancer and his/her minions, you can't do that precise thing yet in 4th Edition. You can make approximations of it, but that's all.
If you want the one that's a better game, that's 4th edition. More balanced, easier to DM, more tactically interesting, and just as capable of handling role-play.
If you want the one with more character customisation, for now that's 3rd edition which simply has more options available. Many of those options are bad, and others are enormously powerful compared to the average, but they are there.
If you want something to simulate a fantasy world, avoid D&D entirely. Any edition. It's not what the game is good at.
If you want the one that's a better game, that's 4th edition. More balanced, easier to DM, more tactically interesting, and just as capable of handling role-play.
If you want the one with more character customisation, for now that's 3rd edition which simply has more options available. Many of those options are bad, and others are enormously powerful compared to the average, but they are there.
If you want something to simulate a fantasy world, avoid D&D entirely. Any edition. It's not what the game is good at.
Particle_Man
Explorer
If cost is a consideration, the SRD (which contains "bard", "lycanthrope (werewolf)", wizard (specialist necromancy), cleric (with death domain), and various undead) is free:
The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org
So because of this, 3e would seem to be cheaper than 4e.
The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org
So because of this, 3e would seem to be cheaper than 4e.
blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
Roll a d20:
- if it's odd play 3e,
- if it's even play 4e,
- on a natural 20 play both,
- on a natural 1 play Monopoly with little voices and sound effects.
- if it's odd play 3e,
- if it's even play 4e,
- on a natural 20 play both,
- on a natural 1 play Monopoly with little voices and sound effects.
While I don't think Werewolf is one of the playable races in the back of the Monster Manual for 4e, I also don't think it's really that hard to extrapolate.
But noting that it isn't a fully-fleshed out option in the core 4e rules is very valid.
If money is the issue, then the acknowledgment of the SRD (free) is totally valid. On the other hand, realistically, you could buy into 4e with the free quickstart that comes with downloading KOTS, tack on the smallest possible subscription to DDI and grab werewolf stats, and you're good to go.
So....OP....any issues you're still weighing?
Similar Threads
