New Race for Review - Minotaur (civilized)

[Khaalis]

Judging from what Mearls said in that paraphrased interview posted recently, it sounds like the minotaur may get an official expanded write-up at some point. Just throwing that out there ...

I don't remember this one. Can you post a link?

Warforged

Don't have a lot of time to post, but I did see this one question I could answer quickly.
Full Dragon 364
Just the Warforged Article

 

[pukunui]

I don't remember this one. Can you post a link?

It's over at Critical Hits. The relevant bit is this bit:

Q: Are there plans to write up all the races from the back of the Monster Manual like the Warforged got?
A: Maybe not all of them… Kobolds, for example, are too powerful. (When has that ever come up before in D&D?) They’d like to eventually do most of them for full write up. More of a question of “when” than “if.”

 

[amnuxoll]

I just had to say: This is outstanding material. Nice work.

 

[Khaalis]

FR Background Book: (*salivating*) Can’t wait!

Check here. Very end of the article is a download for an FRPG preview which includes a fair sized number of sample Backgrounds.

For example, Hammer Punch might be an unarmed combat power that delivers 2[W] + save vs. knockdown (prone), where the “weapon” is a hand dealing unarmed damage. The power might be an at-will, unlocked by the feat Pugilist.

Do we then get a whole path of attacks keyed to the feat Pugilist? How do you organize them in a book of say a dozen feat-based paths – by path, by chapter (feat chapter, power chapter), or some other scheme? Do we close a gateway feat or leave it infinitely expandable? How do advanced racial feats and powers fit into this scheme?

This is suitable for a complete topic of its own. My “personal” opinion is that something like this particular example (i.e. Pugilist) is best accomplished by a new class. In this particular instance, something like a “Scrapper” class that is a martial unarmed combat fighter. A hybrid between striker and defender, based on the “combat style” you take (primarily strikes akin to Karate, or something defensive based on throws, etc. akin to Aikido).

However, with that said, you “could” technically do a series of feat chains along the same lines. We already have the precedent for ”Power Substitution” feats (these examples can be seen in the DDI Material for the Warforged and the Dragonborn). However, it opens up the can of worms arguments on whether “Natural Attacks” are viable or meaningful in 4E. IMHO, I have no issue with “natural weapons”.

The PHB already says that unarmed attacks count as weapons, both in the equipment table as well as specifically calling out that they may be used with melee class powers as the weapon for ”weapon” keyword powers. To this you could add feats that improve the usefulness of these weapons.

Examples:

CLAW FOCUS
Prerequisite: Claw natural weapon
Benefit: Your claws are considered s Simple Weapon of the Light Blades group rather than Improvised Weapons of the Unarmed group.

CLAW SPECIALIZATION
Prerequisite: Claw natural weapon, Claw Focus
Benefit: Your claws deal 1d6 damage.

VICIOUS CLAWS
Prerequisite: Claw natural weapon, Claw Focus
Benefit: The Vicious Claws racial attack power replaces one of your attack power. The power it replaces must be Xth level of higher. If you do not yet have an Xth level or higher power, you can replace the appropriate power when you gain it.
Insert Power Here

To this I would also modify the Enchant Magic Item ritual to create a new ritual – ”Enchant Natural Weapon”; making it more expensive and probably slightly higher level. However, I don’t know how well this would go over considering some of the impassioned arguments AGAINST natural weapons that we have seen.

If new Raging Bull is essentially the Human Berserker racial trait, I wonder if the existing MM name should be used. I’ve always thought it’s a bit confusing if the exact same ability has multiple names. Maybe should write around this. (Wag of the Finger to WotC for Dragonborn Senses, which locks what should be a generally available racial trait to one race).

The problem here is that there are a LOT of powers/abilities that are identical but have different names. “Sure Strike/Careful Strike” is a prime example as many of the Paragon Path powers such as Angelic Action = Beast Stalker’s Action = Shadow Assassin’s Action = Feytouched Action = Battle Mage Action. Many of the MM attacks are the same from creature to creature as well, but with different names for flavor. This is a running theme in 4E. There are only so many mechanical combinations, but the naming can add flavor to them to make them fit many more applications than a standard generic name could.

I seem to recall that some of your earlier drafts had a +2 Perception bonus as a racial trait. However, I’ve been letting your versions overwrite instead of keeping a copy of each, so I have no way to check this.

The original MM version has a +2 Perception (rather than the +2 Athletics I gave).

Hunter’s Heritage

The additional +2 to fear saves still doesn’t thrill me. How about the following?

HEREDITARY SENSES – [Minotaur]
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Minotaur
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to all defenses against powers with the Fear keyword.
…..You gain a +2 bonus to Perception checks.

This could then be added as a Prerequisite to ”Direction Sense”.

Bull’s Fortitude (Heroic)
Prerequisites: Minotaur
Benefit: When you suffer a fear effect that would normally make you move (flee, shift, or so on), you can remain in your current square until the end of your next turn. If you make your saving throw vs. fear at that time, you recover normally; otherwise you suffer the forced movement.

Not sure if this is too powerful for Heroic or not. Resisting forced movement is pretty up there in relative power. Also, I think it would require something akin to the following:

Special: You cannot choose to move while this feat is in effect.

Judging from what Mearls said in that paraphrased interview posted recently, it sounds like the minotaur may get an official expanded write-up at some point. Just throwing that out there ...

But we have no idea when that might, and even then the MM race is all about being evil and dedicated to Baphomet and other demons. Not sure how they will translate that over.

I just had to say: This is outstanding material. Nice work.

Thanks. Still tweaking it and making editorial changes as well. Hopefully it will get put to bed as a finished topic soon.

 

[redrover]

A few quick notes:

Dragonlance: The novels I am looking for (all by Richard Knaak)--


Kaz the Minotaur (sequel to the Huma novel, and #4 in its series, as I recall)
Blood Night
Blood Tides
Blood Empire

The last three comprise the Minotaur War trilogy. (I’ve given up searching my stacks and have gone to library loan to get these. We'll see if it's faster.)

Feat Naming: OK, different, but I can see where it’s coming from now.

Hereditary Senses:

• Like the effect.
• Name leaves me cold, too static, not evocative enough.
• Don’t like the prereq idea. If the feat chains are too long, we end up assigning all the class feats. Too confining, IMO.
• Think it works best as racial trait entry. That would incorporate the prereq concept without the problem noted above.

Bull’s Fortitude:
Power: Consider, this is not a general ability like the Dwarf’s, but specifically targets “fear” effects, which IMO limits it considerably. Second, it is a feat, so there is an opportunity cost as well.



I must admit I don't have a really good handle on how common fear-based monster push attacks are at the Heroic Tier, yet. If this doesn't really kick in as a monster power until Paragon Tier, then moving it up to there makes more sense.



(I would definitely peg at Paragon if the baseline minotaur was 11th instead of 10th Level, but there you go.)

Special: Agree. The intention is that the PC not move. Would changing “can” to “must remain…turn if you use this feat.” work, or do you think that limits the player too much?


Re: Natural Weapons
Saw a Verision post on the En-Wiki Planescape races thread a few days ago that suggests we might have common ground with respect to feats. I'd post a link if I had a little more time now. Maybe next time.



Various Answers: Thanks!

 

[Khaalis]

Dragonlance: The novels I am looking for (all by Richard Knaak)—{snip}

Don’t think I ever read any of them, though I have enjoyed quite a few of Knaak’s novels (D&D and other).

Hereditary Senses:
[*]Name leaves me cold, too static, not evocative enough.

I’m open to suggestions. Naming isn’t always my strongest suit.

Hereditary Senses:
[*]Don’t like the prereq idea. If the feat chains are too long, we end up assigning all the class feats. Too confining, IMO.

Good argument. I’ll nix the higher stacking of prerequisites.

Hereditary Senses:
[*]Think it works best as racial trait entry. That would incorporate the prereq concept without the problem noted above.

The race already has a lot of strong racial traits. Adding another I think, is too unbalancing, especially considering the already existing feats in the same style (e.g. this is built like Escape Artist).

Bull’s Fortitude:
Power: Consider, this is not a general ability like the Dwarf’s, but specifically targets “fear” effects, which IMO limits it considerably. Second, it is a feat, so there is an opportunity cost as well.

Good arguments for Heroic tier.

I must admit I don't have a really good handle on how common fear-based monster push attacks are at the Heroic Tier, yet. If this doesn't really kick in as a monster power until Paragon Tier, then moving it up to there makes more sense.
(I would definitely peg at Paragon if the baseline minotaur was 11th instead of 10th Level, but there you go.)

Fear is pretty well balanced among the tiers. In the MM1 there are the following breakdowns of monsters with Fear powers:
• Heroic: 17
• Paragon: 20
• Epic: 18
Sp overall, I guess Heroic is good.

Special: Agree. The intention is that the PC not move. Would changing “can” to “must remain…turn if you use this feat.” work, or do you think that limits the player too much?

I wouldn’t say “must” as there may actually be times you Want to allow the forced movement. However, you don’t want the minotaur to be able to move outside of the effect of the push by using their own “move action” during the Interim period on this feat’s effect.

Re: Natural Weapons
Saw a Verision post on the En-Wiki Planescape races thread a few days ago that suggests we might have common ground with respect to feats. I'd post a link if I had a little more time now. Maybe next time.

I’ll try to find this. I’ve been having a lot of trouble with the site not loading for me lately (many time-outs).

 

[redrover]

Claw feats: Like them all!

Naming (Hereditary Senses): I’’ll think about it...

Naming Minotaurs: While I like your list generally, it’s for a homebrew campaign. I thought it might be fun to put together a more generic version, based on the literature. I’ve been unable to turn up Ashes of the Sun yet (which as I recall had a fair number of female names), but the following are from various other sources:

Male: Azak 3, Crespos 3, Eunostos 1, Grom 2, Hotak 3, Kalel 3, Kolot 3, Lothan 3, Tinos 2, Rahm 3, Scurn 2, Zhanrax 6.

Female: Azia 4, Bekka 4, Furah 5, Ghaji 5, Helati 2, Kalia 4, Maritia 3,

Makela 4, Nephera 3, Noori 5, Valuna 4, Zyri 3.

1 Day of the Minotaur
2 Kaz the Minotaur
3 Minotaur War trilogy
4 Inspired by male names from the Minotaur War trilogy.
5 Inspired by male names from Slayers Guide to Minotaurs.
6 Ashes of the Sun; found a review with this name

Other Notes: The female name “Bekka” is not derived from “Bakka” (a general), but from “Bek”, another male minotaur mentioned in these books.

The most evocative minotaur names, are perhaps those that either suggest the Grecian heritage (e.g.:“Knossos”) or create a lowing or bellowing sound effect (which is why “Noori” and “Valuna” are my favorites on the female list). A name that doesn’t sound solid and impressive in baritone is probably not optimal.

As the party gnome put it: “Why name minotaurs?...Just “be-cows…”
(We did kill him for that, by the way.)

Q: "How does a winged bull attack?"
A: "Tauran feathers."
(We killed him for this one, too.)





More Book Notes:

• DL, Knaak, R: Land of the Minotaurs (Lost Histories #04, ’96)
• As I recall, Kaz first shows up in The Legend of Huma (Heroes #03)

• Swan, T.B.: Two prequels to Day of the Minotaur:

[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]Cry Silver Bells (1st)
[FONT=&quot]o[/FONT]The Forest of Forever (2nd)

• In the Warhammer fanatasy series, the orc Thrall runs into a peaceful Tauran culture (still checking on specific titles).

• Tamora Pierce (juv fic) stories set in Tortall have a minotaur-like creature called a Taurus (I may get to these if I have time; thanks, wiki).

Side Note: Your use of the word “argument” a few times in your last post is a little outside my comfort zone. Perhaps “point” would be more precise? “Argument” has a subtext of contention, and this discussion strikes me as a process of creation, not conflict. Just sayin'...

En-Wiki: Yes I’ve noticed the site has been a bit twitchy. Took me a while to get there the first time, and I haven’t been able to get back recently.

Quote of the day:
”The minotaurs prided themselves on the fact that, of all the races save perhaps the elves, they were the most literate. While physical strength was the final arbiter in their society, knowledge was the tool that honed that strength.” — Kaz, the Minotaur, Chapter 1.

Ta-ta!

 

[Khaalis]

Took your advice and did some Greek naming convention (as well as used a few of the literary names you listed, but not too many as it seems a bit wrong to wholesale steal them all). Here is the current name list I have now in the write-up.

Male Names: Azok, Bektos, Crespos, Dotak, Euostos, Furax, Gorthan, Hurion, Jinos, Kurn, Lothan, Molot, Narax, Oloth, Perithos, Rahz, Scurn, Turok, Varas, Yorgos, Zelagius

Female Names: Arga, Bekka, Criseis, Danae, Eris, Furah, Ghaji, Hisia, Ione, Junomia, Kleio, Laia, Makela, Nephara, Orthala, Praxis, Relene, Sematia, Tuula, Uphoros, Valuna, Xanthe, Zyri

 

[redrover]

Just another quick update or two:

1. Stumbled across Knaack's Reaver's of the Blood Sea, another minotaur book (Chaos Wars #4). Currently reviewing this and Kaz.

2. The name "Asterion" has been used in several fictional treatments of the Theseus story as the name of the original minotaur/half-bull/half-prince.

3. Got over to your Risi post and commented.