New Race: Is this balanced?

[Acmite]

Hi!

I'm working on a new race for a campaign that's ongoing. My usual method is to look at elves, dwarves, and halflings when determining if it's balanced or not, since feats are tough to gauge when it is open choice (for humans), and half-orcs are kinda boring in term of their racial abilities/modifiers.

Here's what I have, as compared to Elves:

Elves:

+2 Dex, -2 Con
+2 Listen, Spot
Free Feats: Martial Weapon: Longbow, Martial Weapon: Composite Longbow, Martial Weapon: Shrtbow, Martial Weapon: Composite Short Bow, Martial Weapon: Longsword or Rapier. That's a total of 5 free feats.
Secret Door detection thing
Immunity to sleep effects
+2 vs. Enchantments
Elven blood
Low-light vision
Favoured Class: Wizard


Unnamed race (They are catlike in apearance--no, I don't like Furries )

+2 Con, -2 Cha (like Dwarves)
+2 Jump, Climb, Move Silently. Without a tail, I can't justify adding a bonus to Balance.
-2 to Swim
30 ft base move (Changed from 40ft)
Darkvision
Free Feats: Weapon Finesse: Unarmed (just like cats)
Favoured Class: Monk


That seems OK, balance wise. What do you think?

 

[Destil]

To powerful, between the speed bonus, the unbalanced ability score mods and the free feat (very useful for the typical monk of this race). I'd put them as +1 ECL.

 

[Nifft]

If they get Weapon Finesse: Unarmed, why aren't they getting a bonus to Dex and a penalty to Strength? Here's what I'd do:

+2 Dex, -2 Str
30 ft Move
Low-Light Vision (cats don't have Darkvision)
+2 Jump, Climb, Hide, Move Silently; -2 Swim
Free Feat: Weapon Finesse (Unarmed)
Favored Class: Monk

-- Nifft

 

[Acmite]

To powerful, between the speed bonus, the unbalanced ability score mods and the free feat (very useful for the typical monk of this race). I'd put them as +1 ECL.

How are the ability mods unbalanced? They are the same ones Dwarves get.

They would still get fewer free feats than an elf.

I am thinking the extra movement is a bit much, though. So let's strike that out.

 

[Acmite]

If they get Weapon Finesse: Unarmed, why aren't they getting a bonus to Dex and a penalty to Strength? Here's what I'd do:

+2 Dex, -2 Str
30 ft Move
Low-Light Vision (cats don't have Darkvision)
+2 Jump, Climb, Hide, Move Silently; -2 Swim
Free Feat: Weapon Finesse (Unarmed)
Favored Class: Monk

-- Nifft

I deliberately avaoided giving them a strength penalty for two reasons: 1. The only core races with a strength penalty are small sized. 2. I think the fact that the designers decided that strength was more important than any other stat (hence the half-orc's penalties to two stats) is unfortunate. But, the fact that a strength penalty does not have benefits commensurate with the penalties accrued with a strength bonus is, IMO, stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

The darkvision thing is because the race will be from the underdark.

I like the penalty to swimming. It fits both the cat origin and the underdark aspect. Consider it added!

 

[Nail]

Too powerful, between the speed bonus, the unbalanced ability score mods and the free feat (very useful for the typical monk of this race). I'd put them as +1 ECL.

I disagree. Other than the speed bonus, this is less powerful than the elf or dwarf.

My problem with this race as proposed is that it's too focused. These guys want to become monks, and that's about it. Their free feat, the skill mods, and the darkvision all scream "Monk!". Are you sure you want them that focused? If so, why not switch Cha for Wis?

If yer going after a cat-like race, loosing Cha doesn't seem appropriate. (Dump stat, anyone?) Nifft's idea of Str might be better....although Int won't be bad. I've known plenty of wise but dumb cats!

Finally, I'm not sure all of the races match up with the Elvish spread o' powers and abilities. Humans and half-orcs, for example, don't have nearly that level of power.

 

[Acmite]

I disagree. Other than the speed bonus, this is less powerful than the elf or dwarf.

My problem with this race as proposed is that it's too focused. These guys want to become monks, and that's about it. Their free feat, the skill mods, and the darkvision all scream "Monk!". Are you sure you want them that focused? If so, why not switch Cha for Wis?

If yer going after a cat-like race, loosing Cha doesn't seem appropriate. (Dump stat, anyone?)

Actually, I've never dumped Charisma before, that's not the reason. The reason was that cats tend to be easily frightened or startled depsite acute hearing. Plus, since they are from the underdark and usually live in relative isolation, they won't exactly gel with "normal" society. Much like dwarves, they will be misperceived, though instead of gruff, they will give the appearance of being cold and distant.

The free feat is based on the cat entry in the MM. It is better for some monks, but since there is no strength penalty, some monks won't gain anything from it, either.

Again, the skill mods are based on cat, not monk.

Finally, I'm not sure all of the races match up with the Elvish spread o' powers and abilities. Humans and half-orcs, for example, don't have nearly that level of power.

That may be true. Elves do seem to have a lot going for them. But, I don't think the race above is any better than the PHB dwarf, either. I think the Half-orc is a weak race, so I don't use them as the basis of a comparison.

I don't like comparing against humans, since their main advantages (skill points, feat, favoured class: Any) have different weight depending on the character. Run or endurance is not equal to Point Blank Shot. Most fighters won't gain any appreciable advantage from one more skill point, while a cleric might. It's hard to judge since it isn't a fixed bonus.

Would everyone be more comfortable if they didn't have favoured class: Monk? Would it be better if they had favoured Class: Cleric? I'm not sure how this would change anything.

Thanks for all the feedback so far! Responses to what I've written above and more new feedback would be very much appreciated!

Edit: Fixed a faulty causal relationship I implied, and fixed a typo mistake (one of many, I'm sure)

 

[Li Shenron]

+2 Con, -2 Cha (like Dwarves)
+2 Jump, Climb, Move Silently. Without a tail, I can't justify adding a bonus to Balance.
-2 to Swim
30 ft base move (Changed from 40ft)
Darkvision
Free Feats: Weapon Finesse: Unarmed (just like cats)
Favoured Class: Monk

In my opinion, it is very fine and balanced.

I would still prefer a +2 Dex instead Con, and eventually why not -2 Int instead of Cha (it depends if you think they to have more Wiz or Sor)? And I wouldn't mind having +2 Balance anyway, even without the tail, and to me it looks more cat-like than Climb (cats don't really climb well, they "climb" by jumping and balancing, isn't it?). But all of these are IMHO not required to balance the class better.

Compared to Elves, it is very similar: bonuses in 3-4 skills (but penalty in 1), one feat useful for Monks or arcane spellcasters - against some extra proficiencies useful for non-combat classes only, and Darkvision which is better than LLV, but without bonuses to ST.

The speed bonus is effectively a bit too good, but if you make it so that it doesn't stack with Monk or Barbarian extra speed, well it's not a bad idea to have a faster race after all.

In conclusion: I like both your design and idea, I'd like to have such a race in my campaign also!

 

[MerakSpielman]

Cats are actually very good swimmers, once you manage to get them into a large enough body of water to observe them. It's getting them into the water that's the hard part.

Tigers actally LOVE swimming.

Why not give them a tail? It seems a little arbitrary just to take it away for no reason. Go ahead and give them the +2 to Balance. Nobody ever needs to make balance checks, anyway.

I'd also nix the +2 to jump. I don't think a cat can jump further than other creatures of it's size. They just land better, which brings us back to Balance again.

While I'm rambling, I think a bonus to Hide might fit with a cat's typical stalk-and-ambush hunting style. Or bonuses in Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, Intimidate...

Some thoughts on other potential weaknesses (Certainly not ALL of these):
-The fur makes them vulnerable to fire (+25% fire damage or the Catch on Fire rule)
-Fear of water (Will save or will not approach it)
-Startled by loud noises (-4 on saves vs sonic effects)
-Has paws and claws not hands and thumbs (only special-made weapons allowed, cannot do anything requiring grasping an object)
-Short life span (30 years=venerable)
-breeding cycle every few months (females go into heat, males in range cannot resist)
-Can only eat freshly killed meat.
-Poor vision in daylight (-1 on all rolls)

Just some thoughts.
Have fun with these guys!

 

[Nifft]

I like the 'fur-on-fire' idea. How about -4 on Reflex saves vs. catching on fire. Very bad, but also very specific.

-- Nifft