New Rogue Two-Weapon Fighter Ideas

[Mistwell]

While I've been playing many years, I've never had the opportunity to actually play a rogue in 3.5 (despite it being my favorite class in 1.0).

So, it looks like I may have the opportunity coming up. And, I could use some advice.

The setting is Ptolus (and it should go without saying - please no spoilers for any modules related to that setting). It should be 50% city adventure, 50% dungeon adventure, no wilderness. We are starting at first level.

All players so far are inexperienced with 3rd edition. The two unknowns may or may not have experience (DM is still in the process of choosing who will play, as there are as many as four-five people vying for the final two spots). The DM is very good, and very experienced, so he will do fine at introducing the game to the new players (and he in fact introduced me back into D&D years ago).

The party is so far likely composed of the following:

1) A barbarian (unknown race)
2) A Sorceror (probably elf, which has sorceror as favored class in Ptolus)
3) A dwarven cleric (apparently an artificer-type that will wield gunpowder weapons)
4) Unknown
5) Unknown
6) Myself

The Urban Ranger variant in Unearthed Arcana is allowed and encouraged for that class. In fact, most of the variant class changes from UA are permitted. I am unsure if the variants from PHB II will be permitted. Racial Paragon Classes from Unearthed Arcana are also available (and I happen to like the Human Paragon).

Because the cleric and sorceror are ranged-combat focused, I was thinking that a rogue who can engage in melee combat would be more useful than a ranged attacker (though I did consider a dagger thrower).

I have heard that a spring attacking rogue or a two-weapon-fighting rogue are both decent options. Given the lack of fighter-types so far, I was thinking the two-weapon-fighting stratgey was a better one for this group (though I am willing to be talked out of it).

Sources are so far just WOTC and Ptolus, no other settings (so NO forgotten realms or Eberron or Dragonlance).

Because the campaign is 1/2 city based, I was thinking that some of the Charisma skills would be helpful. And because there will be plenty of dungeons, the standard Delver-type skills are also important.

Right now, my plan is to go Rogue 3/Urban Ranger 2 (two-weapon fighting). Where to go from there remains open. Human is the likely race, but I am open to suggestions for an alternative. I like the Whisper Gnome but I am unsure if it will be allowed in this game. I am fond of halflings, so that is possible too though I am unsure if the slower speed would hinder this build or not. Seeing in the dark might be useful as well.

 

[TheBadElf]

Check out the Invisible Blade and Master Thrower prestige classes in Complete Warrior. You can build a very, very effective two-weapon knife fighter using Rogue (and, like you said, a couple of Ranger levels) and going into these PrCs.

 

[Mistwell]

I did think about both, and it's a good combination that I think I could have a lot of fun with. But that build is a ranged-throwing build, and that's the opposite of what I am looking for. Again, I am thinking a melee-attacker is more useful with this particular party, given the number of people already focusing on ranged attacks.

 

[SteelDraco]

The big problem with a combat rogue is that as soon as the enemy realizes how much damage you're putting out, they tend to turn and attack you. Since you're wearing light armor and have d6s for hit points, that tends to mean you go *squish*.

TWF and Weapon Finesse are obvious for any combat rogue. Combat Expertise is almost as necessary, so you can avoid dying horribly the first time the enemy looks in your direction. Dodge isn't too bad either, though how useful it is depends on the house rules being used - I wouldn't bother with the RAW Dodge for anything other than prerequisites.

There are a couple of fun paths to take after that. If you expect to fight a lot of humanoids, the disarm stuff can be amusing. The Elusive Target tactical feat from Complete Warrior is nice for a lightly-armored warrior. You'll be feat-starved, though. Consider dipping a few levels of fighter for hit points and bonus feats.

Anything you can do to get AC would be a good idea. High Dex, a mithril chain shirt, and whatever buffs you can get from the party casters is usually the best way to go. Invisible Blade isn't a bad PrC, though the requirements it lists are somewhat silly for what the class actually does.

Fighter2/Rogue3 can do a lot of damage if you build it right. Two short swords with W Finesse can put out 6d6+4 damage per round fairly easily.

You'll be in serious trouble against anything immune to sneak attack damage, though. But then, combat rogues always are.

 

[Mouseferatu]

There's another variant in UA that allows a fighter to swap out the bonus fighter feats in exchange for rogue sneak attack progression. If you're worried about hit points and/or BAB--and if you don't mind sacrificing some skill points--you might consider a few levels of that.

 

[FalcWP]

Well, most of your damage is going to come from sneak attack dice, but I'll just toss this out there anyway - go with a decent strength (say a 14), don't take weapon finesse, and use a quarterstaff for dual-wielding. Sure, it lacks the crit range or multiplier of a short sword or hand axe (respectively), but it is bludgeoning, and, if you have a decent strength score, you can always opt to use it two-handed for extra damage potential.

Obviously, a number of feats will come in handy. The two-weapon fighting tree, obviously, and two-weapon defense if you want the added AC boost. You could also take Dodge, Combat Expertise, and Weapon Focus (Quarterstaff) to qualify for the Quick Staff style from Complete Warrior to further boost your AC. With a decent strength score, Power Attack might be a decent choice as well, especially if you are using it two-handed at times. If you can spare the levels of Fighter, Weapon Specialization is another good choice - sneak attack is going to be your bread and butter, but adding a consistent +2 damage per hit against anything is never a bad thing.

One other benefit of a quarterstaff is that it won't draw as much attention from NPCs - after all, most serious combatants would choose martial weapons. This (along with a good Bluff check) might allow you to avoid a fight, or put you in position for a good sneak attack. You can also use it to help you balance on a thin beam, scout for traps... a number of non-combat tasks. Who knows, your DM might even give you a bonus to certain checks if you're using the quarterstaff.

 

[Ipissimus]

If you'd like to keep your options open, daggers are a good choice. You can attack in melee and throw them for sneak attacks, you just sacrifice a little bit of damage for your versatility.

Another good idea, if your DM allows it, would be the 'throw anything' feat (can't remember if that was its name, but that says it all), I think it was in Sword and Fist. That would give you the best of both worlds, being able to throw any melee weapon in your possession with a 10ft. range incriment.

Two levels of fighter are a good choice, as said before, compared to 2 levels of Ranger for a combat Rogue. You'll get those 2-weapon fighting feats quicker at the expense of your skills. Ranger sort of requires a little dedication to get the most out of it, but if you do a Urban Ranger/Rogue build, it's very stylistic, but mabe not the best multiclassing choice. Urban Rangers lose alot of their abilities near the start of their progression for the nice bonus of being able to Hide in Plain Sight anywhere later on, so you'll tend to pay a stiff penalty with that sort of build. Better to get the 2 levels of fighter and take a small amount of pain, then grab a level of Shadowdancer later on (if you want Hide in plain sight, of course).

 

[two]

asking for it

Any pure rogue built with the intent to wade into combat directly is going to die. Maybe fast, maybe slow. But it will die.

The best you can do here is a fighter-type with rogue thrown in. Meaning, a FIGHTER with some rogue stuff. Not a rogue trying to act like a fighter.

The classis Barb2/Rogue2 is a nice way to start. Of F2/R2 for feats, etc.

I'd do Rogue1 (avoid direct combat), R1/F1, R1/F2, R2, F2. At 2nd level you can start to be melee-capable.

Don't do the weapon finesse thing. You need to do damage even when you dont' flank.

Str = 14 = Dex with a con = 16 is fine for level 1.

 

[Mistwell]

I disagree. As long as there are bigger, tougher melee PCs around (and in this game there are, given the Barbarian and to a lesser extent dwarven cleric), I think a rogue who gets close enough for melee can hold their own. Particularly if Con is a bit higher, and a couple of levels of Ranger are thrown in.

I forgot to mention this is probably a 32 point buy build (or possibly roll-buy), so I can have a couple of higher stats than a normal 25 point buy build.

And given the two-weapon rogue is one of the main iconic rogue builds that's been around in 3.0 since the beginning, I bet I could find a LOT of people who have played such a rogue who gets close enough for melee sometimes, without getting their character killed all the time.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Indeed. I played a halfling TWF Rogue for a while -- great fun. Contrary to what I read here, I was not short of hit points, though I'd charge into battle (and through it, via tumble, to flank) at every opportunity.

Small size is a big help for the build -- If halfling's not your thing (save bonus), try goblin (dkvis, 30') or kobold (dkvis, 30', no cha penalty).

You need a strength only to carry your two finessed shortswords (using the same light weapon allows weap focus) and you handy haversack -- mine might have been a 7 or 8. I didn't find a need for any fighter/ranger levels, though a level of barb with boots of spring and striding could have an interesting effect...

The biggest concern for me was the will save: cloak of resistance is crucial, as likely is Iron will (Wis 12 doesn't hurt either!).

All your damage is from sneak attacking. When your target is immune, that's when you pull out wands and start testing your UMD skill. Plus, it's great having the lowest strength in the party as you pick out all your d6s for damage...

Hope this helps.