New Stealth rules now give us the speed and sneakiness of stealthing parties

[Stalker0]

One nice effect about the new stealth rules is it actually enhances an ambushing party, and gives some general guidelines on how an ambushing party operates.

1) Now you don't make new stealth rolls unless you move more than 2 squares per move action. That means ambushing parties will want to move 4 squares per round.

2) Assume a stealthing party begins decently far away from anyone else, they can check each other's stealth. If a character's stealth roll is below the highest party member's passive perception, the character will be aware of it, and could take steps to have his friend "reroll" the stealth. Once he has that good stealth roll, as long as he moves slowly, he can maintain it indefinitely.

That means that every member of a ambushing group should have a stealth roll higher than the highest member's passive perception, assuming that they have enough time before hand. This is a quasi take 20 approach to stealthing.

 

[Branduil]

If you don't have to make a new roll, that means you can move into normal cover instead of superior cover, correct?

 

[Pielorinho]

Very interesting! I like the implications for a sneaking party's speed. I'm not crazy about the idea that the party is going to exceed the highest perception check, however. A couple of notes:
-This would only work if each member of the party kept at least partial cover/concealment from the person watching, AND if the DM doesn't make some sort of modifier on the perceiver's roll for knowing the party's intentions.
-It's entirely plausible to rule that the party needs to make a new roll for sneaking at the beginning of each encounter.

If the party tried this, I'd give them a substantial bonus on their sneak checks (+2 to +4, most likely). I'd require them to make the checks at the beginning of the encounter.

Daniel

 

[MarkB]

2) Assume a stealthing party begins decently far away from anyone else, they can check each other's stealth. If a character's stealth roll is below the highest party member's passive perception, the character will be aware of it, and could take steps to have his friend "reroll" the stealth. Once he has that good stealth roll, as long as he moves slowly, he can maintain it indefinitely.

That requires that the hidden ambushers have line of sight and no more than ordinary concealment relative to each other. And if one of them spots another via passive Perception, how does he then signal to his comrade without violating his own Hidden status, which would require him to re-roll as well?

 

[Paul Strack]

I'd base ambushing on the Surprise rules on PH 267 rather than the Stealth skill block. Here is how I do things:

1) The ambushers just needs cover to set up an ambush. No checks are necessary. Combat begins with a Surprise round.

2) The ambushed group individually makes active Perception checks against the lowest passive Stealth of the ambushers. Those who fail are surprised.

3) The ambushers can split their group up into their point-men (the stealthy rogues and rangers) and their rear-guard (the clunky fighter-types). If the rear-guard is more than 10 squares behind the point-men, they get a +2 bonus to their Stealth for purpose of computing the lowest passive Stealth.

4) Any ambushers can make also make a Stealth check at the beginning of combat to see if they are hidden. Only regular cover/concealment is required for this check.

Once combat starts, use the normal Stealth rules.

EDIT: If it isn't obvious that the ambushing party can get into an ambush position (for example, they are sneaking into an enemy camp), I'd do a Stealth-based skill challenge before combat begins to see if they can set up the ambush.

 

[DracoSuave]

The problem with these is they treat stealth as a passive thing that never changes, when in reality, it constantly changes based on where you happen to step. The ambushers would be able to use one stealth roll if they weren't moving, however once they are, they are actively attempting to beat the targets. They are the ones acting, and therefore should be the ones making the roll.

 

[AtomicPope]

That means that every member of a ambushing group should have a stealth roll higher than the highest member's passive perception, assuming that they have enough time before hand. This is a quasi take 20 approach to stealthing.

Hmm... that's actually pretty darn kewl. As a DM I can see this as a reason for players to take Skill Training - Stealth. To me it makes sense because it favors tactically sound judgement. In the Marines it was drilled into our head that "eyes instinctively track movement. No sudden movements. If you move, you're dead." In fact, if you move slowly enough you can avoid setting off motion detectors.

 

[Cwheeler]

The problem with these is they treat stealth as a passive thing that never changes, when in reality, it constantly changes based on where you happen to step. The ambushers would be able to use one stealth roll if they weren't moving, however once they are, they are actively attempting to beat the targets. They are the ones acting, and therefore should be the ones making the roll.

Then designate a number of squares to be 'trapped'. these traps can contain leaves or twigs (or anything else that could possibly make noise. even badly stacked boxes), which require the player activating it to make another stealth check, perhaps with a penalty to the roll...

I think that one of the advantages of allowing the characters to move slowly and steadily is that it makes ambushing, or even pick-pocketing into a more viable tactic.

 

[clearstream]

One nice effect about the new stealth rules is it actually enhances an ambushing party, and gives some general guidelines on how an ambushing party operates.

1) Now you don't make new stealth rolls unless you move more than 2 squares per move action. That means ambushing parties will want to move 4 squares per round.

2) Assume a stealthing party begins decently far away from anyone else, they can check each other's stealth...

Technically, the rules explicitly disallow that:

Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy.

Players in your party are not enemies, and you are never hidden from them. If you allow players to do what is proposed, then shouldn't they also make checks during the encounter to target their friends who are hidden from them? This opens a can of worms such that RAW seems sooth on this point.

-vk

 

[rushlight]

I'm with Vonklaude here. If you are busy trying to spot your friends, or improve their stealth, then you'll be less focused on being quiet yourself. I'd treat it as spending a standard action to Aid Another (for improving their stealth), at a penalty to your own stealth check. Not impossible, but more challenging. Although, for someone with a very high stealth skill, this would be a good option if the situation was right.