• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

New Thief For The party - Cleric Of Norberger

Herobizkit

Adventurer
Looks all good to me, but there's two questions I must know:

a) do the PLAYERS know what you're going to be playing?
b) How will the CHARACTERS react when they find out your dark secret - because they will.

Ultimately, D&D's a team sport, and if you're plotting on being a Neutral Evil "ditch the group when things looks bad/better for me to do so" kind of character, he won't stay in the group long. And neither will you, the player. :/
 

log in or register to remove this ad

UHF

First Post
Looks all good to me, but there's two questions I must know:

a) do the PLAYERS know what you're going to be playing?
b) How will the CHARACTERS react when they find out your dark secret - because they will.

Ultimately, D&D's a team sport, and if you're plotting on being a Neutral Evil "ditch the group when things looks bad/better for me to do so" kind of character, he won't stay in the group long. And neither will you, the player. :/
1) The players won't know.
2) No idea.

As a player I'm not that evil or selfish. Likely, this guy is more like the thief of old. He'll steal from the group to get a ahead, and that is clearly in his interests. Norgorber loves killing, so again this guy will get to do some mass killing which is totally in with his religion.

He is also useful to the group. (Did I mention the mass killing?)

I'll cross the discovery thing later. Perhaps there are some memory spells for Clerics he can use.
 

N'raac

First Post
As a player I'm not that evil or selfish. Likely, this guy is more like the thief of old. He'll steal from the group to get a ahead, and that is clearly in his interests.

I never have a problem with players whose characters are prepared to steal from the group, so long as those players have no problem with how the other characters might react to the discovery their supposed ally is stealing from them, has been lying to them, etc.

For many of my own characters, that would likely start with their refusal to continue working with the offending character. Depending on that character's offenses, and the personality and background of my own character, it could go quite a bit further. If discovery of his offenses resulted in a spell being directed at certain of my characters, the cleric had best pray hard that I don't make my save. Good role playing would typically suggest that my character's response is the same as to any NPC cleric casting offensive spells against him or her. I believe you mentioned "mass killing"...
 
Last edited:

Herobizkit

Adventurer
That's the point I was trying to make, [MENTION=6681948]N'raac[/MENTION]. When [MENTION=95672]UHF[/MENTION]'s party finds out that his character can't be trusted, it's street justice time.

This is why I suggested he at least play Neutral over Neutral Evil and worry less about trying to steal from the party than working some interesting back story to explain his character's life choices... and HELP the party.
 

N'raac

First Post
That's the point I was trying to make, @N'raac . When @UHF 's party finds out that his character can't be trusted, it's street justice time.

At a minimum, good role playing would demand removing the character from the party. Seriously, you want the guy who was stealing from our packs yesterday to watch our backs when our lives literally depend on him acting in the team's best interests? It need not mean "dead character", but it's all the same from a player perspective - your character is out of the game, so make a new one.

You also made the very good point that the secret WILL come out. They always do. Relying on this deep secret being maintained over many gaming sessions is imprudent at best.

This is why I suggested he at least play Neutral over Neutral Evil and worry less about trying to steal from the party than working some interesting back story to explain his character's life choices... and HELP the party.

Absolutely - make an interesting character who can work with the PC group and this could be a very memorable character. Make a character whose goals run at cross purposes, or even oppose, those of the other PC's, and it just sets up a campaign crash. Even an all-evil PC group needs to have some ability to work together to achieve their broader goals. They can't do that if they're too busy guarding themselves against an attack from within.
 

UHF

First Post
At a minimum, good role playing would demand removing the character from the party. Seriously, you want the guy who was stealing from our packs yesterday to watch our backs when our lives literally depend on him acting in the team's best interests? It need not mean "dead character", but it's all the same from a player perspective - your character is out of the game, so make a new one.

You also made the very good point that the secret WILL come out. They always do. Relying on this deep secret being maintained over many gaming sessions is imprudent at best.



Absolutely - make an interesting character who can work with the PC group and this could be a very memorable character. Make a character whose goals run at cross purposes, or even oppose, those of the other PC's, and it just sets up a campaign crash. Even an all-evil PC group needs to have some ability to work together to achieve their broader goals. They can't do that if they're too busy guarding themselves against an attack from within.

First: Many a thief\rogue has pilfered from the party. This is nothing new or unusual. In AD&D the richest guy in the party was the thief (well... mine anyways).

Second: Robbing the party doesn't mean rooting through their packs. I usually quick grabbed stuff off the bodies or handed the nabbed something small from a chest. I was also pretty good and distracting the other players;
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKH2oLjQIAA"]Bear Commercial - YouTube[/ame]


Third: Evil players do not need to slaughter. Not sure where you get that notion from. (Its wrong.) Even an evil guy can concede that he needs to use whomever he can to get what he wants. This means backing up the party as usual.


Currently a friend of mine is running Souls for Smuggler's Shiv. He told me that their rogue stole the loot from the Janeviere (the boat which wrecked them there). However the thief has no idea what the potions are and has forgotten where he hid them. In game terms, their expedition is totally screwed (so many things are poisonous), but its just part of the story.


I'm less concerned about getting found out than you seem to be. The thief is often at the back... if the attention is forward, spells are safe and easy to cast. In the mean time he can fill the role of thief. Even if I'm spotted, they still can't put the exact god in the picture. (Thief covered in Calistra fetishes... nothing new there...)


All this aside I am humming and hawing over my options. I have to concede that being more neutral is more flexible, and more acceptable if I get found out. In my head I'm also going in circles about trying to meet thiefly goals, while butting up against the feat tax of trying to create the character I want.
 

N'raac

First Post
First: Many a thiefrogue has pilfered from the party. This is nothing new or unusual. In AD&D the richest guy in the party was the thief (well... mine anyways).

Nothing prevents any character pilfering from the party. I'd expect my character to get Perception rolls to notice that, however, and my character just might be one of those Barbarians who thinks the proper penalty for thievery is loss of a limb. Or maybe he's a head in the clouds wizard or cleric who cares nothing for worldly goods, so why worry about it?

I've never run a "thief". Thieves are petty villains. I've run a few adventurers and rogues, though. If they wanted to be thieves, they'd probably stay in the city where risk is lower and marks are plentiful.

Second: Robbing the party doesn't mean rooting through their packs. I usually quick grabbed stuff off the bodies or handed the nabbed something small from a chest. I was also pretty good and distracting the other players;


If you're in the back casting spells, you're not at the front near the bodies and the chests, are you? Although I'd expect them to look at the lockpick to deal with the chest in any case.

Third: Evil players do not need to slaughter. Not sure where you get that notion from. (Its wrong.) Even an evil guy can concede that he needs to use whomever he can to get what he wants. This means backing up the party as usual.

Not sure where that comes from. You're the one who mentioned "mass killing". Most PC's, from plunderer to Paladin, kill their enemies, and I expect most characters would consider someone I caught pilfering from our PC group who then directs a spell my way to be an enemy.

Currently a friend of mine is running Souls for Smuggler's Shiv. He told me that their rogue stole the loot from the Janeviere (the boat which wrecked them there). However the thief has no idea what the potions are and has forgotten where he hid them. In game terms, their expedition is totally screwed (so many things are poisonous), but its just part of the story.

A bottle of poison mixed with the potions could be harmful as well. But hey, just because my character caused a TPK doesn't mean it wasn't a great idea for a PC who'll help the party, right?

I'm less concerned about getting found out than you seem to be. The thief is often at the back... if the attention is forward, spells are safe and easy to cast. In the mean time he can fill the role of thief. Even if I'm spotted, they still can't put the exact god in the picture. (Thief covered in Calistra fetishes... nothing new there...)

Yes and no. Many spells have visible effects. Of course, you can stick to less obvious spells.

At some point, the other characters may start wondering why the rogue never enters melee combat, but a bow and some decent range combat feats can put paid to that question pretty easily. I find characters move around in combat quite a bit, so facing the "back" of the party isn't that uncommon. And those spellcasters tend to like hanging back as well. Maybe a step back to the Thief/Rogue is between me and the enemy...

To the original issue, I'd be inclined to rule that the holy symbol can be disguised/used without prominent presentation. The nature of the deity is such that forcing his followers to loudly proclaim their allegiances seems off, somehow ;)

All this aside I am humming and hawing over my options. I have to concede that being more neutral is more flexible, and more acceptable if I get found out. In my head I'm also going in circles about trying to meet thiefly goals, while butting up against the feat tax of trying to create the character I want.

Trying to be two different characters will definitely create some issues in that regard.
 

Azgulor

Adventurer
On the holy symbol front...


1. If you're channeling, the cat's going to be out of the bag that you've got the channeling ability. I don't have the book in front of me, but I've never seen channeling portrayed as whispered words from the back of the room. Your party is eventually going to know you have some clerical training. And if you're being vague about which god you worship, if anyone has Knowledge: Religion, I'd probably allow them a roll to see if they can tell that the power you are channeling isn't evoking, say, Calistria. I'd probably allow an opposed Bluff check, in your defense, though.

2. Not sure if it'd be considered RAW, but I don't see the harm in doing the following: Conceal the holy symbol in the hilt of your shortsword. That way, it's concealed yet accessible and you can further the deception by wearing a different holy symbol around your neck. I'd require the sword to be masterwork quality, of course.
 

N'raac

First Post
2. Not sure if it'd be considered RAW, but I don't see the harm in doing the following: Conceal the holy symbol in the hilt of your shortsword. That way, it's concealed yet accessible and you can further the deception by wearing a different holy symbol around your neck. I'd require the sword to be masterwork quality, of course.

Given the nature of the faith, I'd be inclined to be pretty reasonable about concealing this specific deity's holy symbol where I might require other faiths to present their symbols more openly.
 

UHF

First Post
Yes and no. Many spells have visible effects. Of course, you can stick to less obvious spells.

At some point, the other characters may start wondering why the rogue never enters melee combat, but a bow and some decent range combat feats can put paid to that question pretty easily. I find characters move around in combat quite a bit, so facing the "back" of the party isn't that uncommon. And those spellcasters tend to like hanging back as well. Maybe a step back to the Thief/Rogue is between me and the enemy...

Naw.. He can kill JUST as well as the thief in combat. Channel SMITE is equivalent to a backstab. (A very holy activity for Norgorber I might add.)

On the holy symbol front...


1. If you're channeling, the cat's going to be out of the bag that you've got the channeling ability. I don't have the book in front of me, but I've never seen channeling portrayed as whispered words from the back of the room. Your party is eventually going to know you have some clerical training. And if you're being vague about which god you worship, if anyone has Knowledge: Religion, I'd probably allow them a roll to see if they can tell that the power you are channeling isn't evoking, say, Calistria. I'd probably allow an opposed Bluff check, in your defense, though.

2. Not sure if it'd be considered RAW, but I don't see the harm in doing the following: Conceal the holy symbol in the hilt of your shortsword. That way, it's concealed yet accessible and you can further the deception by wearing a different holy symbol around your neck. I'd require the sword to be masterwork quality, of course.

I'm playing Pathfinder not watching movies. The rules are clear. The symbol must be present. There are no verbal or somatic requirements. It doesn't even glow. (Although my current cleric yells..) So... No. No one will know I'm channeling, but they may begin to ask questions when the horde of goblins suddenly falls over.

I like the idea of having lots of symbols present, and covering the character with lots of misleading fetishes.


Spells? I can make all kinds of excuses for that. I mean really how many character classes are not spell casters? (Monk, Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian, Cavalier, Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai.) The rest are ALL casters.

Its not like the other players get to see my character sheet. And as a player I'm sneaky enough to print one off that says 'Rogue' all over it.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top