D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

[Jefe Bergenstein]

@Clint_L yeah, I've been focusing on the Tiny issue, but the three Animal forms also just don't have enough to make them interesting. You're whole stick is changing into a beast, but other than a bonus to STR and Keen Senses, you are far better off staying humanoid (whether Moon or any other sublclass). And how complex is the old way anyhow, especially if you use DDB. They've drained all the fun out of this class to make it 'simple'.

Druid's schtick is being a 9 level nature oriented spellcaster...

5E wild shape is probably more appropriate on a half caster or a non-caster. It's an absurdly powerful ability that steps on a lot of toes.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yes, I agree that it needs more. But it's still an improvement over the old version.

No, it isn't. Not yet. Maybe in a couple of packets.

Losing temp HP would be fine if there was some kind of replacement. Instead it's just basically stupid to shapeshift in combat in most cases.

Also "Make the rogue redundant by being a better scout" needed to go.

That's never been a thing - and if you think being able to assume tiny forms was that, I would question whether you've even played with Druids in 5E. Tiny forms tend to have surprisingly bad Stealth abilities. They only work through "social stealth"-stuff, and for getting into places - in reality in fact they pair really well with Rogues. Also, you know 66% of four-person parties don't have a Rogue, right, so what, they should be just stuffed lol?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It's mostly to make the druid no longer the best infiltrator. Familiars are good for spying, less so for "turn into a mouse, go into the base, pick up an item, and mouse form out".

Wild Shape gave a TON of utility to a class that already had 9 levels of spellcasting AND other abilities. Honestly too much IMO. I think some decent design space would be adding specific animal shape spells, and leaving wild shape as the more watered down version.

It's absolutely idiotic change for a fantasy situation that never occurred in real games. I mean, why even make up that ludicrous scenario? All it does is highlight that you're not arguing from a reasonable position, because you'd undoubtedly be detected in that process, and probably killed.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Druid's schtick is being a 9 level nature oriented spellcaster...

Their spells are objectively inferior to a Cleric or Wizard. By design. If that changed, which it hasn't, you could make that argument. But as of right now, we've seen the Primal list, and it's still terrible compared to the Arcane and Divine lists. Don't pretend things are equal that aren't, I would suggest.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

It's absolutely idiotic change for a fantasy situation that never occurred in real games. I mean, why even make up that ludicrous scenario? All it does is highlight that you're not arguing from a reasonable position, because you'd undoubtedly be detected in that process, and probably killed.

This has absolutely happened in my own games. The druid is far better at this than the rogue.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

100% on board with the changes to wild shape.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The use of templates for the Wild Shpae forms is what I was expecting, and I think they've implemented them fairly well. Cosmetically, they are keeping fun by letting you play a tiny elephant or a Large rat, or whatever. You no longer have a hip-point-sink, which is good.

NOW...
I'm really interested in how they are determining the STR and DEX of the wild shape forms -- you keep your stats on CON which makes sense, since you are also keeping your own hit points), and INT, WIS, CHA as before. For the land form you (a) get to use your WIS for STR and DEX. The immediate implication of this is (b) to change your attack modifier and damage modifiers to your WIS score rather than STR or DEX... which of course is what happens anyways (+spell mod to hit, +WIS to damage). Both of these are the same: i.e. if we didn't have (b) it would still be true because of (a), and (a) is only going to come into play for out-of-combat uses of Strength and Dex.

Similarly, (c) your AC is 10+WIS, which is what it would be if you used your modified DEX in any case: again (a) and (c) are technically redundant in most contexts. They aren't for determining Initiative (where you are now adding your WIS bonus, since your WIS is your wild shaped DEX), and you add WIS to your skill checks for grapples, etc.

I've said they're redundant, but I'm not sure they are -- I think this is powerful design-wise.

Note, that moon druids can do unarmed attacks. All options need strength to be useful. I really like the change to the grapple rules. This makes str based warriors much more capable in melee.

 

[OB1]

Okay, synthesizing a few different ideas here. Some of this may be unbalanced but wanted a good starting point.

Level 1 - Wild Shape
Choose between a Critter or an Animal when you use this feature.

Critter - AC 10, Speed 20 (walk, climb, fly), Keen Senses, Dark Vision, Cannot attack or cast magic, any damage ends the wildshape

Animal - As per the playtest doc, but remove Senses, Keen Senses and notes about 5th level upgrades. Instead
Pick 2 of the following traits when you assume this form.
Darkvision 60'
Keen Senses
Stealthy (adv on Stealth Checks)
5xPB Temp Hit Points
Climb Speed 30
Walking Speed 50


Level 5 - You can now pick 4 traits when you assume Animal form, and you also gain access to the following choices
Pack Tactics
Multi Attack
Poison (condition on failed save)
Don't provoke Opportunity attacks
Swim/Water Breathe
Tough (AC 15 + Wis)

Level 9 - You can now pick 6 traits when you assume Animal form, and you also gain access to the following choices
Fly
Attacks count as Magical
Regenerate (PB HP per turn)

Moon Druids
Level 3 - As per Playtest doc
Level 6 - As per playtest doc, plus pick 2 more traits when you assume Animal Form
Level 10 - As per playtest doc, plus gain 5xPB Temp Hit Points
Level 14 - As per playtest doc, plus can assume the shape of a Huge creature in Animal Form

 

[Neonchameleon]

No, it isn't. Not yet. Maybe in a couple of packets.

Losing temp HP would be fine if there was some kind of replacement. Instead it's just basically stupid to shapeshift in combat in most cases.

The problem is that the reason it wasn't stupid to shapeshift in combat, the temp hit points, utterly sucked for anyone not playing the druid. Especially a moon druid. I question whether you've DM'd for one if you think that the way it was was in any way acceptable that it made it through an updated playtest with the ablative armour in tact.

Do I think they need something more? Yes. But the game is better with the immersion and tension ruining temp hit points gone. And without the druid being tougher than any martial character even before they start casting spells. The Druid's wildshape even now isn't worthless given the durations involved. They just aren't something that can carry a class that does not need to be carried.

And it's not as if the druid is lacking in overall power. It's a nine level spellcaster that comes out of the gate far faster than any other spellcaster while ending up with ninth level spells.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Note, that moon druids can do unarmed attacks. All options need strength to be useful. I really like the change to the grapple rules. This makes str based warriors much more capable in melee.

In fact, it's better than that -- they get an unarmed strike as a bonus action, which means they can grapple and then do their Action.

But I see what you mean, and why it may make sense to give feedback that STR always takes WIS when Wild Shaped, regardless of form.