D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

[Captain Panda]

Except:

1)!sunmoning is an action, instead of a bonus action. Completely changes the cost element.

2) a summon doesn’t prevent me from getting hit, it’s often possible to ignore summons.

3) concentration, again completely different cost element

1. A good point! I don't think this outweighs the loss in overall value though.
2. A less good point. Sometimes summons are ignored, often they aren't, and sometimes they can't be.
3. Agreed, concentration is a steep cost that escalates the higher and higher you get in level. Part of why Moon Druid HP pools were a double-edged sword. You get lots of HP that will melt away very quickly, and you're gonna either need to skip concentrating on something or risk losing it.

 

[mellored]

We need Wildshape to be useful, but not gamebreaking, for regular druids, and a combat option for Moon Druids.

How about a concentration buff? That would be universally good.

1: some THP
as long as you have temporary hit points, you do not roll concentration checks for damage

5: you can wild shape as a bonus action

11: you can wild shape as a reaction, potentially allowing you to avoid concentration checks


Wild fire: damage form
Moon: melee form (with grapple/trip)
Blossom: defense form
Land: can cast cantrip in wild shape

 

[mellored]

Alternative:
While in wild shape, you can add your Wisdom to concentration saves

 

[Remathilis]

Alternative:
While in wild shape, you can add your Wisdom to concentration saves

That could produce the perverse effect of casting a buff spell or summon and then turtling. Worse yet, since moon druids can cast abjuration (healing) spells while ws, the druid would be best to cast a summon, turn into a dog, and run around healing people. (Insert St. Bernard picture here).

Maybe there could be a way to make self buffs stickier, but not a blanket buff to concentrate.

 

[Bill Zebub]

As a Druid main, it feels to me a lot like it might feel to a Warlock main if they just removed all the invocations involving Eldritch Blast, and removed Hexblade armor proficiencies entirely. Imagine if then you had a bunch of people on the forums defending these changes as "the right direction" because there are all sorts of "busted" builds that use both of these things.

Druid "main"? You're taking me back to WoW raiding ca. 2006.

Anyway, your analogy is most applicable if the issue is really "broken" builds. But I don't think it is. I think it's about system mastery and trap choices.

Since you have me thinking about WoW (and because you said 'main' I suspect you'll know what I'm talking about, but maybe not) at some point back in the history of WoW...I honestly don't remember which xpac...they got rid of talent "trees" and turned it into a tier model, where every X levels you picked one of three talents ("feats"), each of which had a different flavor, but were meant to be roughly balanced, if useful in different situations.

A lot of self-professed "hard core" players kicked and screamed about "catering to casuals" because no longer did gameplay superiority require understanding the complex interactions of the talents, and the math behind them.

The reality, of course, was that most of the players who were upset didn't actually understand that math, or do the work, themselves. Everybody who was at all serious about the game Googled the best talent choices and used those. And everybody who wasn't serious (or who hadn't learned about this yet) picked the wrong talents and sucked. Which the serious players loved because it allowed them to WTFPWN the noobs.

With the new talent structure the delta between those who Googled talent choices, and those who just picked their own, was greatly narrowed.

So getting back to the 5e Druid: as it stands now, players who pore through the Monster Manual comparing stat blocs for CR 1 beasts...or read a blog/watch a video about how to Druid...are vastly more effective than players who like to pick different beast forms based on story and whim.

The Warlock, on the other hand, doesn't suffer from this. Or suffers a lot less. A Warlock who picks non-EB invocations won't do as much damage, but the invocations they do pick will let them be good at the things they care about. Also, in order to compare Invocations they don't have to do research in a book that really belongs on the DM's side of the screen.

(It would be interesting to cross-correlate posts and see what % of the people who like the Druid as it is also think it's evil metagame cheating to read the MM.)

TL;DR: It's not about nerfing OP builds, it's about reducing the effectiveness of system mastery.

 

[mellored]

That could produce the perverse effect of casting a buff spell or summon and then turtling.

Why is druids turning into turtles a perverse?

Worse yet, since moon druids can cast abjuration (healing) spells while ws, the druid would be best to cast a summon, turn into a dog, and run around healing people. (Insert St. Bernard picture here).

Still not seeing why that's "worse". You're just a slobbering cleric at that point.

Maybe there could be a way to make self buffs stickier, but not a blanket buff to concentrate.

Not all druid will be moon druids and will want to self buff.
But all Druids have concentration spell.

 

[Bill Zebub]

You're just a slobbering cleric at that point.

That sentence is going to stick in my mind.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Until you get easily hit in melee and lose concentration, and then your action, slot, and summon was a waste.

You're better off summoning, standing in the back casting cantrips, and then summoning again when the first dies.

Of course. I expect your save bonuses to carry over however. So it beeds tweaking. And still, running back with 40 speed or fly in the air is better than standing in the back usually.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Agree to disagree. I'm not interested in comparing such wildly different features as smite and wild shape in value, to be honest. They're different classes and have very different priorities, so I see this as an apples and oranges situation.

Though I'm also very disappointed with how Paladin was changed. No longer being able to crit on smites is pretty unfortunate, and even after 8 years WotC ignores the existence of dex Paladins.

What?
Ranged attacks. Free chosing fighting style?
How do they ignore them?

 

[Chaosmancer]

How about a concentration buff? That would be universally good.

True, but we sort of end up back in the same exact situation.

If it buffs concentration then you want to cast the spell, then transform, which is an action. That isn't great. Then, if you want to keep participating directly in the fight, you will need to engage in melee, because you were wildshaped into an animal and only have melee attacks. This puts you more at risk of losing concentration (potentially) than if you had simply stayed at range. And we are right back to the Wild Shape being every druid's go to option in combat.

1: some THP
as long as you have temporary hit points, you do not roll concentration checks for damage

That almost seems WAY too strong for a 1st level ability. This is weaker than the Star Druid Dragon, and that was a very powerful ability in my opinion.

5: you can wild shape as a bonus action

If all wildshaping is bonus action, then it would work as a combat ability, but we would also need to change the Moon Druid. You cannot have a subclass that gets access to something like this so close to the main class getting it. Moon Druid's will be looking at 5th level and finding nothing for them here.

11: you can wild shape as a reaction, potentially allowing you to avoid concentration checks

I'm still flip-flopping on wildshape as a reaction to reduce damage. I like it, but I don't like it.