Newbee's Problem of Evil

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Maybe run a "Points of Darkness" campaign?
Evils last big attempt to overthrow good has failed.
The "Republic of All That is Holy" is expanding its borders, and consolidating its existing cities and travel routes.

But somewhere out there, a new Big Bad Evil Guy plans on gaining power, and wants to overtake the Republic. He recruits his new allies the scums of the streets, necromancers thrown out of their academies, fallen paladins, ruthless mercenaries from all over the world to work together and help him infiltrate the enemy fortresses of hope, undermining the attempts of the Lawful Authorities to create peace among old enemies, harassing trade routes and amassing powerful artifacts. Not all of the allies might know who they are working for, but in case they ever find out and them staying alive is more useful to the BBEG, then they will incorporated in the plan and promised lands, wealth and power.

But this enterprise is dangerous. Rivaling evil organisations will try to hinder the BBEG plans and steal his successes from him, or get his allies on his own side. The Paladin Orders of the Republic ensure the safety of their cities, and look carefully if they find people with evil alignment (be it via Detect Evil or due to the clues they leave).

 

[shilsen]

If they're going to be running evil characters, I strongly recommend talking to the players out-of-character and explaining to them that since this is a game for the entire group, there are a few things they should ensure. One - PCs don't kill other PCs. Two - Play smart evil, where you realize that your allies are one of the few things that'll save you from your enemies. Three - Play realistic evil. Evil characters are completely capable of valuing friends and family and treating them just as a good character treats those he values. It's just that the evil character is likely to place much less value in strangers than the good character does.

In short, lots of communication is a good idea.

 

[Kristivas]

I love well-played evil characters. The thief that killed and stole so that his younger brother could be brought up in the church and have a future as a paladin (what a show-down!). The Father who's child was killed, so he takes extreme measures to get revenge. The evil maiden who falls utterly in love with a man of virtue, having to keep her deeds hidden in order to keep him.

The problem is the baby-eating, dog-kicking, steal-from-the-party evil characters who do things just to get ahead at the other player's expense or worse.. just to "be cool". Party meltdown is imminent with these types.

Oddly enough, I played a Lawful Evil Warforged in an Eberron game. He referred to the other party members as "meatbags", "fleshlings", "diseasebags" and other fun little names that drove the other guys insane. Despite being a regular jerk, he never turned on the group and went to great lengths to save party members. Even if they were only "meatbags", they were his meatbags.

He was quite murderous. I based him off the droid from Knights of the Old Republic and it was a hoot to play.

 

[WhatGravitas]

In short, lots of communication is a good idea.

Yes. The most important thing is the reason why they're playing an evil party. As DM, I've encountered three types of evil characters in PC hands:

1) Evil-curious: Evil can be cool, like Darth Vader, Q, and other villains. Many like it, and it's more the label, than the actual playstyle.
2) Mature evil: That's genuine want to "try" evil out, playing actual thugs, mafia bosses - it's similar to evil-curious, but less focused on the "cool badass" factor, more on evil itself.
3) Dumb evil: Demon-like, killing at random, attacking other PCs... and other ways to be a disruptive.

The first one is pretty easy to handle: Just throw them some lines, some typical villain scenes - but it doesn't require a lot of changes - just less "save the princess", more "mercenary-style" adventures, especially during the beginning of the campaign - you'll get a better feel for it later.

The second style is harder to DM, and the tips of the posters above are probably better!

The last one... is one that indicate disruptive players (sometimes unwillingly), make clear that you do not tolerate that - and more importantly, don't allow the "evil-curious" players to drift into that region.

Furthermore, considering you've said your son is 14, and you're DMing for some of his friends and one of their dads, I think it's mainly "evil-curious". Also, since they're younger, it's harder to pull of "mature evil" - kids in that age enjoy over-the-top (which usually ends up like Darth Vader or Darth Maul - "badass evil").

Basically, try to aim your adventures at a "neutral" baseline - hired adventures, stuff that endangers the party or the environment in a way that even evil characters wouldn't profit from. And throw them opportunities for redemption from time to time - this will either give the players the chance to change the course of their characters OR will define them more strongly as evil - both things allow the player to play the character as "evil" - just don't get too heavy-handed, or it will feel forced. About once every third or fourth level or adventure (depending how you want to keep track of time^^).

Cheers, LT.

 

[MrWildman]

Rougerouge and Doghead make good points. And the idea of mercenary anti-heroes is appealing (worked for the A-Team...). Starting from a deliberate "stance of Neutrality" would allow the players to explore exactly how evil they really wanna be.

Then, evil-smart or evil-curious , they could thwart the plans of both the 'Republic Of All That Is Holy" and the new BBEG (a Lawful Evil Warforged, perhaps?).

Peace.

 

[Mystaros]

I used to run into this issue all the time when I ran for younger players. It is only natural for them to want to explore the "Dark Side" of things.

I have generally allowed players to choose whatever alignment they wish, with the caveat that "Evil gets as Evil does." There are always consequences for Evil, just as there are for Good in my campaign. Karma isn't a nebulous concept; as the DM, I am the pro-active Hand of Fate.

That doesn't mean you should railroad them, unless they seriously screw up and you get the high upper hand through their stupidity (which, being young, they might not realize and still believe they are getting "unfair treatment").

Simply dropping a party of uber-powerful paladins on top of the party would not work; dropping hints that a party of paladins is after them, to hunt them down after torching the orphanage back in Fiddler's Green, is another thing. If they are smart and cooperate, they can avoid the danger, and maybe even get the drop on the goody-two-shoes.

A couple things that Evil players usually learn in my campaigns:

1) There's always someone more powerful than you are, and you are certain to get him angry at you if you are not careful;

2) If you treat your minions poorly, they will backstab you, even if you are teh kewl;

3) If you try to form a guild or a gang, you are always moving into someone else's territory, and they will always take issue;

4) If you go about committing random acts of violence, eventually hired swords/wandering paladins/Rangers of the North will find you and try to kill you and take your stuff. That's what most other adventuring parties *do*;

5) Never mouth off to the Big Boss Patron who is holding the white Persian cat. Never.

 

[DM-Rocco]

I am a very-recently returned gamer after a brief, 28-year hiatus from D&D. I loved the game then and I hope my 14-year-old son, Ashton, will too. I live and work within the same square mile in Morris Plains, NJ. I'm happy to introduce myself to this forum and I hope to get acquainted with others, so thank you for any replies at all.

Last week I hosted our first game with six players, friends of Ashton and one of their dads. There are others who may join as well. We had a very good time together. I started with a pre-made adventure. I think I will want to tailor other people's adventures for a while rather than write my own from scratch, first to learn what works and second to manage my time.

I can't tell for sure at this early stage, but I suspect that most of the players will want to play as evil, or possible neutral. If that's the case, I would rather work with an adventure that suits their alignment. What do you find works for a basically evil-aligned group? Are there adventures out there for these kinds of groups that you have used that work well? How do you keep the group playing together? Is it inevitable that the characters will spend a good part of their time trying to kill each other off? How do I give them what they want without destroying the cohesiveness of the group? I'm not very interested in staging a bunch of contests among the players.

Thank you in advance for your comments and greetings.

Ross

Not to toot my own horn and pimp the magazine again, but since alignment has been brought up, we have an excellent article on how to deal with all alignments, including society and troublesome classes like the paladin and monk. You can check that out in our premiere issue, which you can buy at www.dragonroots.net.

I included the address for you since you are new and might not have heard of us. Oh, and since you are new to the game, or at least are introducing new players, there is an excellent adventure designed just for DMs like you who have not played in a while and are starting out a new group of PCs that have never played. Of course, it is in our Premiere issue. Seriously, give our site a check out and see if you are interested. We deal with a lot of the issues you are having in our premiere issue.

Now, some free advice. The problem with evil is that most players think serial killer and not a structured evil. Not all evil is the same, just as all good is not the same. Not every evil person is going to slit your throat just to get ahead in life. You really need a guide to understanding alignment. It would be best if you started them at neutral and let their action change the alignment.

 

[WayneLigon]

Many others have had opposite experiences. I, personally, have never seen an evil party - played as evil rather than neutral - that didn't destroy itself and the campaign within 1-2 game sessions.

 

[rossrebailey]

I've read lots of good advice from all ends of this, and still reading. Thanks! To answer your question why I "suspect" they want to be evil, it's that most of them selected an evil alignment (but actually not my own son), and I only suspect it because I don't have confidence that they understand how this really works and whether being evil will work best for them.

 

[Clueless]

Honestly, I rarely even have my players pick alignments from the start of a game - I tend to tell them how they're playing the alignment after a few sessions and we go from there. It keeps them much more focused on the character and not the sheet. I wouldn't stress too much about it - just watch over them like you would any other potentially disruptive group.