Newbie Needs Help Creating Elite Monsters

[Xphile]

I'm trying to create an encounter that would have three bandit leaders and some lackeys square off against the party. The party I run is of size 6, so I'm trying to make things a bit more difficult for them.

The problem I'm having is how to create a good Elite monster. I have the Core Rule Books, but haven't yet invested in DMG2 or MM2. What I did is basically roll up some level 8 characters and convert them over into monsters.

This of course gave the monsters many more encounter powers, which I like because it gives the monsters more tactics in the fight. I lowered the HP of the monsters down to what a character of that level would have and decided for now not to convert the dailies over. Mostly because a PC would have blown a daily or two before the last fight (in a lot of cases), and thus it isn't really fair to have a boss with a lot more dailies all primed and ready to go.

So since I am very new to this, I'm asking help for how to create these monsters. Should I leave them with the powers they have but increase their HP to normal elite levels, should I reduce their powers, increase their damages? I know I could play test them and see how it turns out, but I'd first like input from those who are more experienced as many of you have done this dozens of times and probably do it in your sleep.

 

[Mentat55]

Normally, I would not make opponents using the PC creation rules. For an elite, I'd start with the guidelines in the DMG (though I don't follow their suggestions on increasing defenses -- that is one big change from the MM1 and DMG to the MM2 and DMG2). An elite has more staying power because its hit points, and usually has a way of generating more actions. For example, it might be able to make two attacks instead of one, or have a minor action power that does something useful. They often have a simple immediate action, that lets them do stuff outside of their turn.

Then, thematically, elites are something special -- mini-bosses, commanders, the super-tough ogre amongst the orc warriors, that sort of thing.

I take it you want 3 bandit leaders (all elite), surrounded by bandit minions? I'll post an idea for one bandit leader a bit later, and I am sure other, more skilled monster makers can chime in as well.

 

[Mentat55]

In making Dast, I wanted to do three things:
1. Make him good at range, but weaker in close, to reward the PCs for finding a way to get at him in the back rank.
2. Give him a way to single out a target and do something nasty, like Hunter's Quarry, but different.
3. Give him a weak area attack to represent him firing a whole bunch of arrows at a time.

Dast, Bandit Leader Level 8 Elite Artillery
Small XP 700
Initiative +8 Senses Perception +10
HP 132; Bloodied 66
AC 20; Fortitude 19; Reflex 20; Will 19
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6
Action Points 1
m Scimitar (at-will; standard) • Weapon
+13 vs AC; 1d8 + 4 damage (1d8+12 on crit).
r Longbow (at-will; standard) • Weapon
Ranged 20/40; +15 vs AC; 2d6 + 5 damage.
R Rapid Shot (at-will; standard) • Weapon
Dast makes two longbow attacks.
R Deadly Aim (at-will; standard)
Ranged sight; Dast gains a +1 bonus to ranged attacks made against the target. He can designate only one target with his deadly aim at a time.
R Piercing Arrow (recharge 4 5 6; standard) • Weapon
Ranged 20/40; targets a creature affected by Dast's deadly aim power; +13 vs Reflex; 3d10 + 5 damage, and ongoing 5 damage (save ends).
A Barrage (recharge 6; standard) • Weapon
Area burst 1 within 20; +15 vs AC; 2d6 + 5 damage. Miss: target is pushed 2 squares.
Craven Step (at-will; immediate reaction, when hit by a melee or close attack)
Dast shifts 1 square.
Alignment Unaligned Languages Common
Skills Acrobatics +13, Athletics +10, Stealth +13
Str 13 (+5) Dex 19 (+8) Wis 12 (+5)
Con 12 (+5) Int 14 (+6) Cha 11 (+4)
Equipment Hide Armor, Scimitar, Longbow, Arrows x40

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, without getting into the specifics of the 2 NPCs you presented too much all the DMG2 says about Elites is to not give them (or Solos) any defense bonuses. This works out pretty well. I personally favor using monster style opponents with monster level hit points etc. Remember, PCs have Second Wind, a lot of surges, a leader to give healing, etc. Monsters don't generally have all that and its a bit too complex for the DM to deal with, so instead they get monster level hit points. It actually works out better.

A level 8 Elite Artillery will have 144 hit points. It sounds like a lot but consider a level 7 fighter with a good CON will have around 70 plus 12 or so surges worth 16 each roughly. Even if he has nothing but a potion of healing and Second Wind he can take about 100 damage before going down. With a leader around to give out healing he's easily the equal of an Elite (about right, 2 PCs vs 1 Elite). Now, go with the 50 some HP you have on your guys and even a party that doesn't focus fire will have them down in 3 rounds. One that does will do have both down in 2-3 rounds depending on how well they role.

This brings up the last point. It just isn't worth giving opponents a lot of complex powers. Level 7 PCs are going to use probably all 3 encounter powers just because they can, and MIGHT use both at-wills. Even if they use a utility or daily its maybe 6 powers and often a PC will use only 4 powers in a fight and could easily get away with using 2-3. The variety is there more to match different situations than because all of them are needed in any given fight. Monsters fight once, they just don't need more than 3-5 powers.

Now, looking at Dast's powers I'd say go with the 2 basic attacks, he'll need both. Just fold the nimble strike into Longbow Attack maybe. Twin Strike is fine. I'm not sure if "New Power" was supposed to be in there or not, but I'd just apply it to his stat block since he has no reason not to use it first thing. Evasive Strike could become just a minor action encounter power that lets him shift 4 squares (more flexible and basically does the same thing as the existing power plus gives him a minor action use at least once). Maybe just keep one or the other of the other two encounter ranged powers and maybe make it recharge on bloodied or recharge 5,6. That and give him 144 hit points. I think he'll be a solid bad guy.

If I were making Brant I would just eliminate a bunch of his attack options. Keep the burst and say Fox's Gambit. Maybe instead of two-fisted shooter I'd make it a minor action recharge that gives him an hxcb shot. Maybe recharge his burst when he's bloodied. Again I'd give him about 144 hit points.

The only other comment I have is I'm not sure why Brant is marked as being a "leader" since role-wise he has no leader type abilities. Its tough to wrap up leader abilities and a lot of good combat options in one monster though. I might be tempted to throw in a slightly lower level non-elite "sergeant" type that can do a bit for the minions (shift them around etc, a bit like the hobgoblin commander). That might make the minions a bit more relevant since by level 8 they tend to fall pretty quick.

 

[Xphile]

I wanted to thank you both for your suggestions.

Currently remaking them now based on both suggestions and getting the third two-weapon fighter type ready.

I labled Brant to be "leader" because he is the leader of the bandits, but you are right I should either remove that from him or toss in some sort of inspiring shout ("200 Gold for whoever gets the first kill!").

 

[Mesh Hong]

I am unclear what level your 6 PCs are, so it makes it more difficult to gauge the power level of the bandits you propose.

However I have assumed that your 6 man group is level 8, making the elites even level, and have made an example encounter that is level +2.

You will notice that I use a slightly different formula for minions. The system I use tells me that 5 level 7 minions are worth the same as a standard level 7 creature, instead of the usual 4.

Encounter (level +2 for 6 level 8 PCS) 3000xp
1x Flamboyant Bandit Leader (level 8 elite skirmisher) 700xp
1x Bandit Archer (veteran) (level 8 elite artillery) 700xp
1x Bandit Thug (veteran) (level 8 elite brute) 700xp
15x Bandit (level 7 minion) 900xp


Flamboyant Bandit Leader Level 8 Elite Skirmisher (Leader)
Medium Natural Humanoid XP 700

Initiative +12 Senses Perception +12, low light vision
HP 180; Bloodied 90
AC 22; Fortitude 20, Reflex 22, Will 21
Resist 10 poison
Saving Throws +2; +5 vs. fear
Speed 6
Action Points 1

Rapier Strike (Standard; at-will) ♦ weapon
Attack +13 vs. AC; 2d6+6 damage

Crossbow Shot (Standard; at-will) ♦ poison, weapon
Range 10/20; attack +13 vs. AC; 1d8+6 damage; on hit target takes 5
ongoing poison damage (save ends)

Slashing Blade (Standard; at-will) ♦ weapon
Leader makes 2 Rapier Strike attacks; if both attacks hit the same target
the target grants combat advantage to all enemies until the end Leaders
next turn

Pressing Assault (Standard; recharge ) ♦ weapon
3 attacks against the same target; attack +11 vs. Will; 1d6+6 damage; on
hit slide target 1 square and Leader follows up into the square the target
vacated; if all 3 attacks hit target is knocked prone

Blinding Shot (Standard; encounter) ♦ weapon
Range 10; attack +11 vs. Reflex; 3d8+5 damage; on hit target is blinded
(save ends)

Flamboyant Proclamation (Move; encounter) ♦ fear
Burst 5; attack +11 vs. Will; on hit target is immobilised and takes a -2
penalty to attack rolls until the end of Leaders next turn, aftereffect
target takes a -1 penalty to attack rolls (save ends)

Lead By Example (Minor; at-will) ♦ 1/round, Leader must have hit an
enemy
Only usable when Leader has hit an enemy with an attack this turn; 2 ally
minions may either shift 2 squares or make a free basic attack

Combat Advantage
Leader deals 1d6 extra damage against target granting it combat advantage

Fancy Footwork (Immediate Reaction; at-will) ♦ missed by melee attack
When missed by a melee attack Leader may shift 2 squares as an
immediate reaction

Alignment Unaligned Languages common, elven
Skills Acrobatics +15, Diplomacy +14, Insight +12, Intimidate +14,
Stealth +15, Thievery +15
Str 16 (+7) Dex 22 (+10) Wis 16 (+7)
Con 18 (+8) Int 14 (+6) Cha 20 (+9)
Equipment rapier, hand crossbow, leather armour

-------

Bandit Archer (veteran) Level 8 Elite Artillery
Medium Natural Humanoid XP 700

Initiative +9 Senses Perception +11, low light vision
HP 142; Bloodied 71
AC 20; Fortitude 20, Reflex 22, Will 20
Saving Throws +2; +4 vs. slow and immobilise
Speed 6, Archer ignores difficult terrain while shifting
Action Points 1

Scimitar Slice (Standard; at-will) ♦ weapon
Attack +15 vs. AC; 1d8+5 damage (crit 2d6+13 damage)

Bow Shot (Standard; at-will) ♦ weapon
Range 20/40; attack +15 vs. AC; 2d6+5 damage

Rapid Shot (Standard; at-will) ♦ weapon
Archer makes 2 Bow Shot attacks; Archer may shift 1 square at any point
during this action

Wounding Shot (Standard; recharge ) ♦ weapon
Range 20; attack +15 vs. AC; 3d10+5 damage; on hit target is slowed and
takes 5 ongoing bleeding damage (save ends both)

Spray of Arrows (Standard; encounter) ♦ weapon
Close blast 5; enemies only; attack +13 vs. Reflex; 1d10+5 damage; on hit
target is pushed 1 square

Hunters Step (Move; encounter)
Archer shifts 4 squares as a move action and gains a +2 bonus to its AC
and Reflex until the start of its next turn

Alignment Unaligned Languages common
Skills Acrobatics +14, Intimidate +12, Nature +11, Stealth +14
Str 16 (+7) Dex 20 (+9) Wis 14 (+6)
Con 17 (+7) Int 16 (+7) Cha 17 (+7)
Equipment longbow, scimitar, leather armour

-------

Bandit Thug (veteran) Level 8 Elite Brute
Medium Natural Humanoid XP 700

Initiative +7 Senses Perception +3
HP 216; Bloodied 108; see Bloodied Counterattack
AC 20; Fortitude 21, Reflex 20, Will 18
Saving Throws +2, +5 vs. fear
Speed 7
Action Points 1

Axe Chop (Standard; at-will) ♦ weapon
Attack +11 vs. AC; 2d8+5 damage (crit 2d8+21)

Overhead Chopping Cleave (Standard; at-will) ♦ weapon
Attack +11 vs. AC; 2d8+5 damage (crit 2d8+21 damage); on hit Thug
makes a secondary attack against the same target; attack +9 vs.
Fortitude; on hit target is pushed 1 square and dazed (save ends); hit or
miss Thug cleaves a secondary and a tertiary target for 5 damage

Brutal Rush (Move; recharge )
This attack is made at any point in a movement action; attack +9 vs.
Fortitude; on hit target is pushed a number of squares equal to the Thugs
remaining movement and Thug follows up ending the action adjacent to
the target; on miss target is pushed 1 square and Thug follows up, this
ends the Thugs movement action

Leg Breaker (Standard; encounter) ♦ weapon, reliable
Attack +9 vs. Reflex; 3d8+5 damage (crit 2d8+29 damage); on hit target
is immobilised (2 saves ends), after effect target is slowed (save ends)

Bloodied Counterattack (Immediate Reaction; encounter) ♦ when
first bloodied
When first bloodied Thug makes an Axe Chop attack against an adjacent
target

Alignment Unaligned Languages common
Skills Athletics +14, Endurance +13, Intimidate +10
Str 20 (+9) Dex 16 (+7) Wis 8 (+3)
Con 18 (+8) Int 10 (+4) Cha 12 (+5)
Equipment greataxe, leather armour

-------

Bandit Level 7 Minion
Medium Natural Humanoid XP 60

Initiative +7 Senses Perception +5
HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
AC 21; Fortitude 19, Reflex 20, Will 18
Speed 6

Sword Swing (Standard; at-will) ♦ weapon
Attack +12 vs. AC; 8 damage

Javalin Toss (Standard; encounter) ♦ weapon
Range 8/16; attack +12 vs. AC; 8 damage

I'm with the Boss
Bandit gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls and all Defences while they are
adjacent to any elite bandit

Shifty Footwork (Immediate Reaction; at-will) ♦ missed by any attack
If missed by any attack Bandit may shift 1 square as an immediate
reaction

Alignment Unaligned Languages common
Skills Nature +10, Stealth +12, Thievery +12
Str 14 (+5) Dex 18 (+7) Wis 14 (+5)
Con 16 (+6) Int 10 (+3) Cha 12 (+4)
Equipment longsword, shield, 1x javalin


I hope this example gives you some ideas.

 

[Xphile]

Okay, after some work and looking at the examples you two provided, this is what I came up with. Feel free to critiquie, chastise or point and laugh.

And yes, this is a size 6 group of level 8. I do really like the idea of using the 15 minions, of course I'll have to play with my map and see if this is going to make things too crowded.

An aside: Mesh, I love your book of the dead. I definitely know that I'll be using it to build some things later.