D&D 5E Newbie question re: surprise, initiative and ready action

[Ibrandul]

Newbie DM here running 5e. Last night my players were moving stealthily through a dungeon and the two characters in the lead both perceived the dim torchlight of an approaching enemy from around a corner. This wasn’t visible to the other party members (who don’t have darkvision), and the two characters who were aware of the imminent threat neglected to inform the other characters.

The players of those two characters announced that they wanted to “ready an action” – namely, shoot arrows at the enemy as soon as it rounded the corner.


The enemy then rounded the corner, just a second or two after the two characters first noticed the light, and initiative was rolled. Due to a roll of 2 and no bonus to perception, the enemy ranked last in initiative. The enemy was “surprised” as well.

My players were under the impression that, because they had readied an action prior to combat (to loose their arrows), those two characters could fire their arrows off in a sort of “free round,” then the first round of combat would take place (in which, because the enemy was surprised, it couldn’t move or take actions), and then the second round of combat would take place, at the end of which (due to its poor initiative) the unfortunate enemy would finally get to do something more than take a reaction. So, in my players’ minds, the two forewarned characters would have three attacks each, and the other PCs would have two attacks each, before the enemy could attack at all.

I explained that, mechanically, “ready” isn’t something you can do prior to combat in 5e, and that the way my players expected the situation to play out was basically a combination of 5e (“surprised”) and earlier editions (“surprise round”), adding up to a double bonus for the players. They accepted this – they’re always good about accepting my rulings – and we simply resolved the encounter according to initiative order, with the surprised enemy unable to take any actions until its turn on the second combat round.

But the two characters who had actually noticed the threat were second-to-last and third-to last in initiative (due to the rolls), and this seemed unsatisfactory to all of us, too. Basically, it seems that my players and I wanted three tiers: “actually aware of an imminent threat”; “actively anticipating the likelihood of a threat but not aware of any specific threat”; and “caught completely off guard.”

Any suggestions?

 

[robus]

I oscillate on this a lot the transition from narrative play to combat rounds is always awkward (the "combat swoosh" as the Angry GM calls it). I especially don't like to roll initiative if it's not clear that combat is coming but then I get caught when a player (typically) declares an attack outside of combat (slightly different from your scenario) but still within the "does that action fall within the combat round or not?" question.

On your situation, it seems clear that the PCs are setting an ambush of sorts and thus initiative should be rolled and surprise determined. Combat ensues as normal. Given that the PCs that noticed the threat are in front and the probably tight confines of the dungeon even if other PCs rolled higher they wouldn't be able to necessarily attack through their companions. So the PCs in front would get to attack the (hopefully) surprised monsters in the first round as they expected.

Elegant transition from narrative to combat is a skill I want to improve so I'm curious to see how others respond.

 

[Li Shenron]

I would have had both the enemies and the PCs in the back count as "surprised" and being unable to act in the first round, where only the two leading PCs would have acted.

 

[Engstrom]

Would it be reasonable to assume they can't ready an action strictly speaking as they're not in combat yet? I'd say combat starts when the npc rounds the corner and is surprised. The pcs readying is simply setting up the surprise rather than getting an attack ready.

Of course you could be sneaky and have the npc pushing a prisoner ahead of him so he gets a bellyful of arrows and the pcs lose the element of surprise

 

[thethain]

A few things.

1. You are correct, you do not ready actions until you have rolled initiative.
2. Without darkvision, the torchlight around the corner is still dim light and visible from however far the PCs can naturally see. (but its bright for those with darkvision within 60feet of it so obviously easier to see, but seeing blackness turn to dancing shadows is also a very obvious change) so theres a good chance the pcs in back would have noticed the light as well.
3. How I would have handled that exact scenario? If you ready an action. You roll initiative. Because your characters think there is combat about to happen. The NPCs and players in back are surprised. So they do nothing on the first round of combat, but the two wanting to ready actions can then ready their actions when their initiative hits.Next round, the bad guys move into sight and readied actions fire. Depending on the order of initiative, the ready guys might have to ready again, effectively losing their surprise round.

 

[iserith]

Newbie DM here running 5e. Last night my players were moving stealthily through a dungeon and the two characters in the lead both perceived the dim torchlight of an approaching enemy from around a corner. This wasn’t visible to the other party members (who don’t have darkvision), and the two characters who were aware of the imminent threat neglected to inform the other characters.

The players of those two characters announced that they wanted to “ready an action” – namely, shoot arrows at the enemy as soon as it rounded the corner.

The enemy then rounded the corner, just a second or two after the two characters first noticed the light, and initiative was rolled. Due to a roll of 2 and no bonus to perception, the enemy ranked last in initiative. The enemy was “surprised” as well.

My players were under the impression that, because they had readied an action prior to combat (to loose their arrows), those two characters could fire their arrows off in a sort of “free round,” then the first round of combat would take place (in which, because the enemy was surprised, it couldn’t move or take actions), and then the second round of combat would take place, at the end of which (due to its poor initiative) the unfortunate enemy would finally get to do something more than take a reaction. So, in my players’ minds, the two forewarned characters would have three attacks each, and the other PCs would have two attacks each, before the enemy could attack at all.

I explained that, mechanically, “ready” isn’t something you can do prior to combat in 5e, and that the way my players expected the situation to play out was basically a combination of 5e (“surprised”) and earlier editions (“surprise round”), adding up to a double bonus for the players. They accepted this – they’re always good about accepting my rulings – and we simply resolved the encounter according to initiative order, with the surprised enemy unable to take any actions until its turn on the second combat round.

But the two characters who had actually noticed the threat were second-to-last and third-to last in initiative (due to the rolls), and this seemed unsatisfactory to all of us, too. Basically, it seems that my players and I wanted three tiers: “actually aware of an imminent threat”; “actively anticipating the likelihood of a threat but not aware of any specific threat”; and “caught completely off guard.”

Any suggestions?

Your ruling was a good one in my view. There is no "ready action" outside of combat, mechanically. Fictionally, sure, but surprise and turn order are determined as normal without regard to those fictionally readied actions. Surprise is already a pretty big bonus to the side that earns it.

As for the dissatisfaction with regard to turn order, I don't see how anything is gained by being more granular with the initiative system. Sometimes you'll have these "odd" results and sometimes you won't. It's a wash in the end. If it's a particular annoyance, then just rule consistently on a case-by-case basis that a player or monster should actually be moved up or down in the turn order despite their initiative roll. I wouldn't make it a habit though.

 

[MarkB]

One solution would be to initiate combat earlier, as soon as the characters perceive the threat. That way, while the enemy is still a round or two out from reaching the intersection, the party can communicate the threat to each other and choose to either leap out and attack, or ready actions. Since all these activities are time-sensitive in light of the imminent threat, it's reasonable to play them out in combat rounds.

 

[pdegan2814]

One solution would be to initiate combat earlier, as soon as the characters perceive the threat. That way, while the enemy is still a round or two out from reaching the intersection, the party can communicate the threat to each other and choose to either leap out and attack, or ready actions. Since all these activities are time-sensitive in light of the imminent threat, it's reasonable to play them out in combat rounds.

This is probably the way to go, in my opinion. When the outcome is sufficiently dependent on competing reaction times, Initiative rolls will tell you who's quicker on the draw.

 

[guachi]

I would have had both the enemies and the PCs in the back count as "surprised" and being unable to act in the first round, where only the two leading PCs would have acted.

I think this is the result I'd most likely choose. The "surprise round" is your ready action. Only it's better because you get your full turn of actions/bonus actions.

 

[Mercule]

I don't typically allow attacks outside actual combat. IMO, that's exactly what "surprised" is about.

Generally, I view combat as having an "instigating event". That could be just meeting up with some orcs and assuming combat is going to happen (normal combat, no surprise) or it could be a hidden archer shooting at you. Whenever that instigating event occurs, initiative is rolled. If there's a chance that one side might not be aware of the instigating event, then surprise is determined*. If archer beats his targets passive perception, for example, he gets the drop on him. Otherwise, something tips the target off -- that could be a glint of sun on the arrowhead, a snapping twig, just plain keen eyes, some sort of gut instinct, or something else that makes narrative sense. Even then, the archer might still win initiative, the target just isn't technically surprised with any special significance that may hold.

Regardless, the attack happens after initiative is rolled and within the constraints of the combat structure. I can think of corner cases that might be an exception to this. For example, having a crossbow pointed at someone's head in a hostage situation. I've never had one come up in actual play, though. Even for that example, I'd probably just give advantage on initiative if the crossbowman decided to pull the trigger or allow deception for surprise if someone wanted to get close and try a sudden disarm; stuff that still fell into the combat structure.

* I allow options other than just stealth vs. perception for surprise. A cunning assassin might be able to get close using deception, for example. No hard-and-fast rules, I just use what seems appropriate and prefer to encourage players to decide what they want to do, then figure out what rules make sense to apply, rather than starting with the rules as a menu of options.