D&D 5E No Combat Rounds?

[Ilbranteloth]

OK, I've been running my 5e games for several years without initiative now. However, Mike Mearle's tweet about initiative made me look at it again. The path it led me down was a similar initiative system using his system of multiple die sizes.

The reason I like the approach is that it automatically addresses speed factor without math. But it also allows you to sometimes get the shot in first if you roll well. For example, this is what I settled on:

Action	Initiative Die
Attack, finesse or light weapon	d4
Attack	d6
Attack, heavy or 2-handed weapon	d8
Grapple/Grapple Maneuver	d4
Ready	Special
Spellcasting,	d4 + level
Undeclared	Special

So you roll initiative using the die indicated, and that sets the order. The nice thing about "lower is faster" for initiative is that it actually sets the order. #1 goes first, then #2, etc. I don't have an issue with ties, but if needed you can either compare Initiative modifiers or roll an opposed initiative check. You roll initiative every round.

Going back, I'm reminded that this is fairly similar to how AD&D, and even more so AD&D 2e worked. If you opted to use the Speed factor rule, those numbers were added to your initiative check (Dexterity modifiers were not). In 2e, spells often had casting times of a number - Casting time: 1, Casting time: 6, etc. and that was also added to your initiative.

In AD&D the round was split into segments, and casting times were in segments. If the casting time was longer than the number of segments you had left in a round, the spell was completed in the next round.

So in my new initiative system I had settled on 10 segments per round. If you want to change your action in the middle of the round, no problem, just roll the initiative die again. Since that could put you over 10, it would carry over into the next round. A segment in this system is 1/2 second, so we're not talking a lot of time.

Ready uses your reaction like the normal ready rule.
Undeclared just means you don't roll the initiative die until you declare an action.

--

OK, if you're still with me, I realized that the biggest problem I have with the way 5e turns work is that you take your move, action, and bonus action all at once. While everybody else is doing nothing. In theory the round is 6 seconds long, and everything "is happening together" but the way the game is designed, that's just not true. You can move 30 feet, attack, and if you're a rogue use a bonus action to move another 30 feet before anybody else can do anything. It really bugs me.

But if movement is separated from your action - everybody can move at any time during the round, then it solves the problem. Since the round is 10 segments, you move up to 1/10 (3 feet) of your move each segment. Somebody pointed out the issue this causes with people using a grid (I don't) so you could shoehorn it into 5 feet every 2 segments, and switch it to 12 segments.

One big advantage to this system - people can run away. If you start 30 feet away from your target and want to close for melee, they can actually attempt to run away. In which case you can chase them. One modification I made is that you can use your action and/or your reaction to dash. Of course, a rogue can also use their bonus action.

With the normal system, if you're 30 feet away from somebody, and you win initiative, there is nothing they can do to get away from you until after your attack.

--

So thinking further, what if there aren't any rounds? At least not in the usual sense.

What if there are just actions, with a variable amount of time for an action? In AD&D, if the speed factor of the weapon you were using was less than 1/2 of your opponents, then you got an extra attack. And of course there was the old "3 attacks every 2 rounds" multiple attack progression that also modified the usual wall between the rounds.

In this case, a combat starts with segment (or call it round if you want) 1. Everybody rolls their initiative die, and they end up on 1, 3, 4, 6, 7. They use their actions, and then instead of another round, as soon as you complete one action, you declare the next and roll initiative again. So the guy with initiative 1 attacks, and then intends to attack again on his next turn. So he rolls a d6 and gets a 4. So his next attack is segment #5. So his second attack comes before the slowest attack (and ties the second slowest). Is that really a problem? Note that creatures who get multiple attacks still get multiple attacks each time they use their action. So I don't really think so. But let's play it out a bit longer. Here are some random rolls:

Character A (d4): 1, 5, 9, 12
Character B (d6): 3, 6, 9, 13
Character C (d8): 4, 10, 11, 14

So the first two characters had three actions before the third character got his second action, but then he got his third action before they got their fourth. It's quite possible for somebody to have a lucky streak and get a lot of actions, and for somebody to have a really unlucky streak. But with no modifiers it's just the luck of the die.

What about things like Lair Actions? They can have a variable or fixed amount of time. Spell durations? If we're basing it off of a 10 segment round, then anything that lasts until the start of your next turn is 9 segments, and the end of your next turn is 10. Start of somebody else's turn? Doesn't change - because it's based off of them and affecting them for a certain number of turns rather than time. Spells that last a minute...last a minute. We just need to define the amount of time a "round" takes. Perhaps each slice of time is a second and we're just counting time?

We do have to address things like reactions. As Mike Mearles points out, bonus actions are often attached to actions. Some are independent (like Bardic Inspiration). We could just assign a fixed amount of time - 10 seconds between them minimum.

But really, the easy answer is that you only get one bonus action and one reaction between your actions.

I'm excited about the prospect, time to go do some testing...

Edit: This formatted very poorly. Try this instead: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12xPT-45PCBvaAJ3FaKI2Tkz2UmMGzoFcCzG0i7BfOss/edit

 

[Satyrn]

I think what you got could be cool.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

We did this in AD&D 1E and 2E, as well as Villains & Vigilantes.

Players declared an action and rolled to see how long before it happened. If I remember right, we used 1d6, plus weapon speed plus casting time. So, if you declared an attack with a shortsword (say speed factor 2 ) you'd roll, and get say 4, which meant you went on the number 6 from now.

The GM would just count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, .. and so-on. You'd leap in when it was your turn.

Effect durations were in multiple's of 10. If spell lasted 6 rounds, it's duration became 60. If the mage finished casting it on number 32, then the spell lasted until number 92.

Spell interruption was based on the casting time. If you were hit during those numbers then the spell was interrupted.

We stopped using it, for the reason that it made daggers too dangerous. This sort of system means a dagger wielder can get four or five dagger (sf 1) hits in before the two-handed sword (sf 15) gets one hit. Since daggers didn't do 1/5 the damage of a big sword, daggers ruled. It also meant that magic users did nothing but cast magic missile.

Originally we subtracted the DEX mod from every roll. That made high-DEX characters way too powerful.

One thing we never came up with was a good way to deal with holding actions. We had a few combats where every single person held their action. It led to combats where everyone was just standing around for tens of minutes, just staring at each other, waiting for the other person to make the first move.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

We did this in AD&D 1E and 2E, as well as Villains & Vigilantes.

Players declared an action and rolled to see how long before it happened. If I remember right, we used 1d6, plus weapon speed plus casting time. So, if you declared an attack with a shortsword (say speed factor 2 ) you'd roll, and get say 4, which meant you went on the number 6 from now.

The GM would just count 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, .. and so-on. You'd leap in when it was your turn.

Effect durations were in multiple's of 10. If spell lasted 6 rounds, it's duration became 60. If the mage finished casting it on number 32, then the spell lasted until number 92.

Spell interruption was based on the casting time. If you were hit during those numbers then the spell was interrupted.

We stopped using it, for the reason that it made daggers too dangerous. This sort of system means a dagger wielder can get four or five dagger (sf 1) hits in before the two-handed sword (sf 15) gets one hit. Since daggers didn't do 1/5 the damage of a big sword, daggers ruled. It also meant that magic users did nothing but cast magic missile.

Originally we subtracted the DEX mod from every roll. That made high-DEX characters way too powerful.

One thing we never came up with was a good way to deal with holding actions. We had a few combats where every single person held their action. It led to combats where everyone was just standing around for tens of minutes, just staring at each other, waiting for the other person to make the first move.

As for the daggers, that's why I like the die type, even somebody with a pike can roll a 1 so the dagger isn't always better. In addition, in my campaign light weapons aren't as effective against medium and heavy armor.

I think I'll add a +2 to everything so that you'll always be guaranteed to have enough time for an action, bonus action, and reaction before your next action.

As for the spells - I can see where that would be an issue. Instead of d4 + spell level, I'd do this now:

Spellcasting (level 0-2) d4 +2
Spellcasting (level 3-5) d6 +2
Spellcasting (level 6-9) d8 +2

Again, so they have the opportunity to roll a 1 just like everybody else.

So the time between actions will be a minimum of 3 segments (since everything will be a die type + 2), and up to 10 segments if you roll high with a slower action.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

As for movement. Walking 3 mph is about 4.4 feet per second. So I think it's reasonable to say you can move 5 feet per second (count).

Double that (Dash 1x) at 10 feet is a little less than 7mph
Double-Dash (or 3x move speed) is 10 mph.

Since the Usain Bolt has reached 28 mph I think that these amounts are reasonable.

So if we are simply measuring seconds during combat, and assuming a base move of 30 feet then:

Normal speed is 5 feet per second (3.4 mph)
Dash is 10 feet per second (6.6 mph)
Double-Dash is 15 feet per second (10 mph)
Triple Dash is 20 feet per second (13.6 mph)

That keeps it simple for folks using grids.

The additional modifier to your initiative count (+2 is what I suggested) also has the effect of limiting the number of actions during the duration of a spell. As [MENTION=6788312]Greenstone.Walker[/MENTION] noted, spells can just be a fixed amount of time. If we look at a spell that has a duration of 1 minute, it would account for 60 segments.

Modifier +2, minimum 3 steps between actions, maximum 10 steps, means that there could be between 6 and 20 actions for a a given creature in that time.

Modifier +3, minimum 4 steps, maximum 11, then it's 5 to 15 actions.

Modifier +4, minimum 5 steps, maximum 12, then it's 5 to 12. That actually sounds pretty reasonable to me. So initiative modifiers would be:

D4 + 4
Attack with finesse, light, or ranged weapon.
Grapple
Ready
Spellcasting (level 0-2)
Unarmed Attack

D6 + 4
Attack
Spellcasting (level 3-5)

D8 + 4
Attack with heavy or two-handed weapon
Spellcasting (level 4-9)

Ready works as normal - you specify a trigger, and you use your reaction instead of your action. The advantage being that you are interrupting their action (and potentially stopping it).

For the folks that like to wait, my rules cover that very simply. They roll their regular initiative die once they decide on an action. So they wait a few seconds to see what's happening, then decide to make an attack with their longsword? They roll 1d6 + 4 and now they have their slot. Note that the entire time they are waiting they can still be moving.

In other words, if you know what you want to do, but need to wait for the correct time, then you ready the action. You get less than your full attack allocation, but can be much more precise in your timing.

Also, when your turn comes, you must use either your action (or probably your bonus action), otherwise you roll initiative again because you're hesitating and changing your mind. The reason I'm being somewhat strict here is that you're talking seconds now, and hesitation is meaningful.

I need to put together a list of bonus actions to see how they will interact, but thinking through a couple quickly:

Something like Bardic Inspiration is easy. Although it says you spend a bonus action on your turn, because of the way this is now structured, you turn essentially starts with your action, and you can use your bonus action at any time between that action and the next action (when you "refresh" your bonus action too).

So I would say that the Bard can use Bardic Inspiration anytime except the second that they are actually attacking. Although frankly, I don't really have an issue with that either. They can continue to talk and inspire then too.

Some are like the Fighter Maneuver Commander's Strike. In this system, the multiple attacks ability of the fighter means that each attack happens on a different second. Again, this is easy to adjudicate - either on your Turn, or the second immediately following (or the next if they have 3 attacks with the same weapon).

Some are like Cunning Action, which lets you spend a bonus action to Dash or Hide. That's obviously taking time (one or more counts), but easy enough to adjudicate. You won't be able to use it until your first turn, but that doesn't change anything.

So I think I'm comfortable saying you can use your Action or Bonus Action first on your turn. However, in most cases you'll probably have to use your declared action immediately following.

Really, the only major change that there is the possibility that one creature may get more or fewer attacks in the same general time period. And I'm OK with that.