D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Mind of tempest]

I think they could make it work if each was part of a 'complete' set - i.e. you buy the Dark Sun Box Set, you get the Dark Sun phb and mm and dmg, one 1-20 campaign, and some minis and a map or two. The trick is to assume that WotC will never expand on this - that's the Dark Sun product. After that's out - they're done making official Dark Sun products. If you want to homebrew stuff for it, pull in stuff from other products, by 3pp, that's all on you. Like Legos, they're yours to play with however you want and can be combined with any other product line, as you see fit, but the company isn't going to get into that. Just do your thing.

The next product from that team is the Official Spelljammer Box Set. (Ravenloft would come before Dark Sun, but I digress).

Of course they'd need to sell the Dark Sun PHB as a separate product, and might as well license a line of player minis, but the main thing is to treat each as a singular product so they're not splitting the brand.

make sure all the rules are more or less the same or at least do not change the basic ground the PHB laid out.
honestly, I would buy this assuming I got a psion out of it.

That I think would have to be the trick; WotC's Presents: Dark Sun The RPG could work as a one and done product, but it would begin to cannibalize if they released multiple supplements for it. And multiply that by every setting you want them to support. TSRs biggest sin was trying to sell you supplements that only worked with certain other supplements.

I would also put out big consolidation books if the line gets big like the reprint of the artificer but more cohesive for different things like a big part two to the default dmg and phb, a part two but not a 2.0.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Today a setting is not only the books published by WotC but mainly the great number of titles published in DMGuild. I dare to say WotC worries more about the DMGuild than the number of sales of the physical books.

We don't know the final choice about the psionic mystic, or if they are going to add more psionic classes in the future. Now it would be easier to start from zero with a spiritual succesor than risking with a potentially controversial reboot.

My theory is Dark Sun will be a survival videogame, because like this they shouldn't worry too much about the continuity.

Ironically DS could be perfect as an allegory about the fear to the changes and the migrations. The new PC species after 2nd Ed would be inmigrantes, not wellcome by all the natives, but also the Athasian native need to go out and explore new lands to escape the tirany of the sorcerer-kings (maybe something like a reboot of Jackandor). Then these would become the inmigrants and the intruders.

* What if now I affirmed elves and the spiritfolk from Kara-Tur are far cousins, who coul say the opposite?

* Today with a tablet and a SRD you don't need to spend money to play D&D.

In my opinion D&D is not only playing in the tabletop, but also when fans are creating their own characters and worlds with their imagination. If an otaku published in internet his own homebred setting, altough he wouldn't throw a dice, that would be D&D too. When fans tells fan-fiction using D&D as source of inspiration, that is also D&D.

* What fantasy Japanese franchises would be the easiest ones to be adapted to D&D settings, Final Fantasy, Trials of Mana, Dragon Quest..?

 

[Epic Meepo]

What if now I affirmed elves and the spiritfolk from Kara-Tur are far cousins, who coul say the opposite?

In the The Horde boxed set, there's a passage that strongly implies elves and spirit folk are related: "To elves, spirit folk, and any of their blood, the water causes painful burning and rashes, almost as if they were allergic."

There's also an obscure Forgotten Realms novel that seems to conflate elves and spirit folk, but I don't remember the exact details. It involved a spirit describing a half-elf's elven parent as half spirit-folk or some such.

 

[Yaarel]

A Dark Sun (Players) Handbook is doable. The format would add options that other settings can borrow from, same as borrowing from Tashas and Xanathars.


Generally, settings should define which species and classes are present − and which arent. Removing is as important as adding.

Along with banning certain races and classes, there can also be "soft bans", where the option is possible but rare or far away in the periphery. A DM can decide whether the ban is hard or soft. With DM agreement, a player can use a banned species or class, whether it is reflavored to suit the setting, or actually plane hopped from elsewhere. A page or so in the Dark Sun Handbook can suggest to the DM how to incorporate the removed classes. For example, the 5e Barbarian class isnt in original Dark Sun but is thematically fine.

A 5e Thri-kreen officially exists. The Human-Dwarf "Mul" might use the Dwarf stats, depending on how 2024 handles multi-species characters. The Half-Giant might be 5e Goliath. Or, it might be a new species with stats for Dark Sun. Personally I would like a playable Giant that is Large size. Dark Sun has "Not Orcs", heh, and it is probably fine to use the 5e Orc stats for it.

Dark Sun fans have genuine disagreements about how to do the classes.

For example, the original Templar was a Cleric subclass that drastically modified the base class. There are several ways to represent this in 5e: 1. A less drastic Cleric subclass, 2. a Paladin subclass, 3. a Warlock subclass, or 4. Sorcerer subclass. I lean toward Paladin.

The socalled Dark Sun "Bard" is actually a 5e Assassin Rogue with a new nonmagic "Troubadour" background.

There probably needs to be a Psion class. But 2024 can easily have the free psionic feat at level 1.

How to translate Dark Sun into 5e is a matter of taste, with benefits and costs, no matter which way one goes about it.


The biggest issue is the systemic slavery of Dark Sun cultures. But it is easy to pick up the setting where its timeline leaves off. The Age of Sorcerer Kings is over. The an Age of Heroism has begun. It is easy to say that the cities have officially abolished slavery. Dark Sun wont feel the same because of the abolition. This will probably bother some of the fans. But there will still be poverty and scarcity. There are still remnants of the Sorcerer Kings that can continue conspiring and supplying villains.

 

[Hussar]

The an Age of Heroism has begun. It is easy to say that the cities have officially abolished slavery. Dark Sun wont feel the same because of the abolition. This will probably bother some of the fans.

That's an understatement.

If you thought people were pissed about Spelljammer, good luck with this product.

 

[Distracted DM]

That's an understatement.

If you thought people were pissed about Spelljammer, good luck with this product.

4e had Dark Sun iirc, but I have no idea what if anything it did with the lore. Was it similar or the same as the 2e Athas?

Re: Spelljammer, the thing was terribly undercooked. Lots of reasons to be upset about that release

 

[Yaarel]

4e had Dark Sun iirc, but I have no idea what if anything it did with the lore. Was it similar or the same as the 2e Athas?

Generally, 4e found reasonable ways to update Dark Sun to 4e-isms. For example, the "positive material plane" is the same thing as the Feywild, and there were patches of it here and there, where the elements were still in balance. The Elves in these locations were immaterial Eladrin.

In 4e, the Templar is a background ("theme") that any class can take and whose feat grants certain arcane spells while leveling.

For 5e, the background could grant additional prepared spells, but then only a caster class could take the background and would need to use its own slots. Alternatively, the Templar could be a subclass that any class can take.

 

[Remathilis]

4e had Dark Sun iirc, but I have no idea what if anything it did with the lore. Was it similar or the same as the 2e Athas?

Re: Spelljammer, the thing was terribly undercooked. Lots of reasons to be upset about that release

The short answer is 4e Dark Sun is not the same as 2e Dark Sun despite the fact that it covers a lot of the same ground as far as time period and such.

The long answer is: 2e Dark Sun is utterly defined by negative space. That is, Dark Sun is more known for what it changes than what it adds: It changes the fundamental way arcane magic works, changes or removes several classes, removes or alters every race in the PHB, completely removes the equipment list, and removes large swaths of the classic D&D monsters. 2e Dark Sun even changed ability score generation. When purists go on about how different Dark Sun is from D&D, THIS is what they are talking about. If it was as easy as adding a few new races, a subclass or three, and a psionics system to D&D and putting a varnish of desert-apocalypse aesthetic on it, it'd be done already.

There have been several attempts to design a Dark Sun with a more inclusive eye towards rules integration. Paizo did one in Dragon during 3e, WotC did their own in 4e. Both went over like a fart in church because they committed the unforgivable sin of not requiring you to take a hatchet to your PHB in order to play it. The 3e version found space for every class and most of the races in the PHB and Psionics Handbook, the 4e version did likewise. That was enough for Dark Sun purists to reject it outright. You can get a few to grumble and admit there were a few good ideas (such as warlock templars or genasi) but there has been an overall negative reaction because, again, its the negative space that was the attraction in the first place. Any attempt to make it work with the majority of class options in D&D defeats the purpose. Its not Dark Sun if half your PHB isn't invalidated.

And that's not how WotC design settings. It really never did. The Golden Age of "chuck the PHB, we're using these rules instead" died in 1997. Every setting WotC developed for 3e, 4e, and 5e (and including its officially licensed ones like Ravenloft and Dragonlance) moved toward at the bare minimum all the PHB classes and most of the races being included. WotC wants to minimize negative space in its design, and that's an anathema to Dark Sun. Personally, even if there wasn't any lore issues (and that's a whole different kettle of fish) Dark Sun's identity as being "not your daddy's D&D" was always going to doom any attempt at a revival.

Which is why, moreso than any other setting in WotC's stable, Dark Sun is the one that either needs to be its own separate (but compatible) game which defines everything according to its own design principles OR needs to be left in the vault with Birthright and Mystara. You cannot do it justice by just adding psionics and a few character options.

 

[Distracted DM]

Its not Dark Sun if half your PHB isn't invalidated.

Love this.

 

[Mind of tempest]

The short answer is 4e Dark Sun is not the same as 2e Dark Sun despite the fact that it covers a lot of the same ground as far as time period and such.

The long answer is: 2e Dark Sun is utterly defined by negative space. That is, Dark Sun is more known for what it changes than what it adds: It changes the fundamental way arcane magic works, changes or removes several classes, removes or alters every race in the PHB, completely removes the equipment list, and removes large swaths of the classic D&D monsters. 2e Dark Sun even changed ability score generation. When purists go on about how different Dark Sun is from D&D, THIS is what they are talking about. If it was as easy as adding a few new races, a subclass or three, and a psionics system to D&D and putting a varnish of desert-apocalypse aesthetic on it, it'd be done already.

There have been several attempts to design a Dark Sun with a more inclusive eye towards rules integration. Paizo did one in Dragon during 3e, WotC did their own in 4e. Both went over like a fart in church because they committed the unforgivable sin of not requiring you to take a hatchet to your PHB in order to play it. The 3e version found space for every class and most of the races in the PHB and Psionics Handbook, the 4e version did likewise. That was enough for Dark Sun purists to reject it outright. You can get a few to grumble and admit there were a few good ideas (such as warlock templars or genasi) but there has been an overall negative reaction because, again, its the negative space that was the attraction in the first place. Any attempt to make it work with the majority of class options in D&D defeats the purpose. Its not Dark Sun if half your PHB isn't invalidated.

And that's not how WotC design settings. It really never did. The Golden Age of "chuck the PHB, we're using these rules instead" died in 1997. Every setting WotC developed for 3e, 4e, and 5e (and including its officially licensed ones like Ravenloft and Dragonlance) moved toward at the bare minimum all the PHB classes and most of the races being included. WotC wants to minimize negative space in its design, and that's an anathema to Dark Sun. Personally, even if there wasn't any lore issues (and that's a whole different kettle of fish) Dark Sun's identity as being "not your daddy's D&D" was always going to doom any attempt at a revival.

Which is why, moreso than any other setting in WotC's stable, Dark Sun is the one that either needs to be its own separate (but compatible) game which defines everything according to its own design principles OR needs to be left in the vault with Birthright and Mystara. You cannot do it justice by just adding psionics and a few character options.

would be better to take inspiration that a straight update