Thanks for all the input! A few more hints my DM has dropped:
-He's planning the entire adventure to occur in 1 day game time, with a lot of grinding, so building an enduring character (not running out of spells or class abilities) is important.
-Most of the adventure will be in Darkness, so Darkvision or effective light sources will be necessary. Some monsters will dislike light.
-At some point, there will be an overwhelmingly large Zombie Horde. They will be under CR for a level 15 party, but there will be a ridiculous number of them. Be prepared.
-The Plane favors negative energy and shadow magic. Positive energy will be powerful when it works, but due to the nature of the demiplane, it will be harder to use positive energy. Other magic types may be affected, and we'll have to wait to play to figure that out, hence the recommendation not to build a PC that relies heavily upon magic. My guess is that magic types will end up with a negative energy, or evil, or shadow descriptor when cast within this demiplane, but he's keeping tight lipped about it.
-We've compared the feel of the game to
Riddick stories/films and
Resident Evil games/films.
-There will some stealth components, so hide/move silently etc. skills will be a plus.
With this in mind, I shall respond to your suggestions! Thanks all!
How about a Dragonfire Adept or Binder? A few good and consistent crowd control options there.
I've always wanted to try a Dragonfire Adept. It is one of the builds I'm considering. I've read about Binders, haven't yet invested the time to wrap my head around it, This campaign would fit the theme. I'll take a look.
CLASS:
1. Ask if you can do Sorc or BattleSorc with a Sorc spell list and the Bard's Spell/lvl progression, and take a Sorc-only heritage feat chain- Celestial, Draconic or Infernal. That way, you can take the utility spells you want, but will still have an arcane attack that has a nice AoE.
2. Ask if Bards can take Sorc-only heritage feats; see above.
3. Go LN, be a _______/Kensai, and choose the appropriate anti-undead enhabpncements for your Weapon of Choice. Filling in that blank, there are Incarnum classes that work well vs undead- one is a PrCl. The Divine Mind could be nifty in a paladin-but-not kind of way. Marshal auras might be effective as well. Sohei from OA- especially with the 3.5Ed update by James Wyatt in Dragon
#317- are half-casters with elements of Paladins & Barbarians.
FEATS:
Any class with Turn Undeads- even if it isn't as good as a Cleric's- is still going to help. Not only will a weak one help take care of the hordes of lesser crypt-critters, the use of Sacred Healing (CompDiv, not PHBII- they're different, according to WotC)- esp. with Extra Turning- will let you heal the party of a lot of damage fairly effectively, turning dangerous hordes of lesser foes into minor threats & nuisances.
GEAR:
______ of Disruption is your friend. I like Flails & Mauls.
Anything that does AoE damage is good.
Sorcerer is out, due to the nature of magic in the demiplane. My DM hasn't explained to me the nature of magic on the demiplane, it's more something I get to figure out as I start the adventure, but he's cautioned me up front. Bard is likely for the same reasons, but Bards have more going for them. I'd imagine Bardic Music would still operate, I'll check.
Kensai is a fantastic PrC. I've not yet considered a build with that in mind, I'll toy around with it.
Turn Undead and feats that work off it will definitely help, however most classes/PrC's with the ability also are big into their spellcasting, and I don't want to take a class and miss out on a major class ability.
Any and all weapon enchantment suggestions are welcome. AoE damage will definitely be put to use, especially in that Zombie Horde scene.
BoED has the Soulfire armor property (+4 grants permanent Death Ward) which'll make you immune to bad stuff.
Ring of Negative Protection (36k) grants immunity to negative levels.
This suggestions rocks, and will likely be THE thing to keep me alive. I will use this, thank you!
Depending on the DM, consider dipping for Iron Heart Surge.
Oh.... "select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of one or more rounds." So Stat effects and negative levels. Nice. Since maneuvers have an in-encounter refresh mechanic, when out of an encounter, during any moment of down time, could this be used over and over?
If warlock is in then there is no need for craft handwaving since they can do it without needing the spell.
I'm guessing no full caster prestige classes like divine crusader?
If paladin isn't quite up your alley, pious templar might be worthwhile. It doesn't get turn undead, but it does get pally or blackguard spells and mettle. It can be used to get into Sacred Exorcist for turn undead, but at that level you probably shouldn't bother actually using turn undead for turning since your effective cleric level won't do any good against any decent undead.
Would it be possible to use the
Paladin of Freedom? Just giving a suggestion if you don't like the normal Lawful Anal paladin.
Given that you said full casters are out, dread necromancer is probably out too since it has 9th level spells though it's not nearly as powerful as cleric or wizard. Rebuke Undead is more powerful than Turn mostly because rebuking make it cower in awe instead of run like hell.
One oddball choice you might try is Crusader 5/Pious Templar 7/Sacred Exorcist 1 or 2/Crusader +1 or 2. Pious Templar gets 4th level paladin spells at 7th level (assuming your charisma is high enough), which means Dispel Evil and thus the biggest pain taken care of with SE prerequisites.
If you're going paladin you might look into Gray Guard from Complete Scoundrel. Wiggle room concerning the paladin's oath is nice.
I do like the Paladin of Freedom and Grey Guard, I played one once and it was enjoyable. My guess is that Dread Necromancer might actually excel in this demiplane, but I could see my DM asking me not to play one, just to keep the challenge up. Pious Templar would be a sturdy survivor, but as I said, I'm trying to avoid whatever complication is coming with spells.
Swift Hunter builds are often good for creature specific games.
A very good suggestion, I'll consider a build. I'll need to make sure I have a bazillion arrows, just in case. I recall a magic item that produces endless arrows, I'll make sure I remember what that is when considering the build.
I cant think of any class at the moment, I will edit my post if something comes to me. I'd look for a class with detect undead as a class feature
Anyone with undead as a favoured enemy would be a good idea as well.
One of my favourite healing items from the MIC is the healing belt. 750 gold for 3 charges a day. 1 charge for 2d8 health, 2 charges for 3d8 and 4 charges for 4d8. With no cleric you will want to invest in some more perminant healing methods.
Some eternal wands you may want to consider. Since without more acces to magic items eternal wands are probably a better investment
Hide from undead, though your DM may ban this (one for each party member)
Command undead would be quite amusing. Might want more than one
An eternal wand of remove curse and remove Disease is almost a must have.
I don't know how accessible food will be, so eternal food source items could become very important?
Everyone should invest in a holy symbol to ward of vampires.
As with the Swift Hunter suggestion, Ranger Favored enemy would serve very, very well here. I've been assured that almost every enemy will be undead or construct, so that would really help.
I love me some healing belts, and every PC I've ever created since I discovered that item has at least one as standard gear. The genius of your suggestion is that I've not ever considered using one offensively, and that is well worth a level 15 PC owning... hm.. maybe 20 of them? Or more.
My DM might allow an Eternal Wand of
Hide From Undead because of it's limited number of times used. However, due to the nature of magic on the demiplane, the spell might not work, or not the way I'd expect. Still, I'll definitely have one anyway.
Holy symbol for Vampires! Excellent, I would not have thought of that.
If it isn't too late for some more suggestions, I'd recommend taking a look at the divine feats in Libris Mortis. Spurn Death's Touch and Sacred Vitality will protect you greatly from the effects of undead. And things like Sacred Healing (cd version) and Divine Resistance (CW) will offer some protection for your party. Divine Shield, Might and Vigor (CW) are also good choices.
If you're going to take a prestige class, I'd caution you on Hunter of the Dead. It seems great, and I used to think it was neat until I played one.... You need to be able to turn undead, but the class won't advance your turning ability. You get a second spell list instead of advancing your original one. (Are there any classes that turn but don't cast?) And since you're probably starting as a paladin (since Cleric is out), you're not going to be advancing anything from that class (lay on hands, smite evil, etc.)
Have you considered something like Annointed Knight?
How is the undead apocalypse happening? Is it just tons of undead roaming the countryside? Or will there be things like cultists and necromancers?
I'd not looked at Spurn Death's Touch or Sacred Vitality. Thanks for pointing them out!
Hadn't considered Hunter of the Dead, so I'll continue to ignore it.
Oh... just peeked at Anointed Knight. I'll consider that into a build, could be very useful. I'll need to have a huge stash of oils beforehand, but easy enough to load a Haversack as a level 15 character.
Besides the Undead producing Machine, all I've been told about is "Undead and Constructs". Shadows will exist, no ghosts (because I asked about incorporeal foes). And there will be many types of Zombies. The machine replicates many Undead-creating-boosting-feats, So I'm expecting undead to be smarter and stronger than the average bear, but he's not giving me any more then that.
ask DM if you can pick up to 2 flaws for bonus feats at first level, makes finding the right build easier.
paladin 5 / hunter of the dead 5 / boneknight 5 / (bone knight to infinity)
bone knight is a ba paladin PrC from Eberron 5 Nations; don't take any more levels of hunter of the dead, the best ability it gets is the 5th level true death ability - slay them rejuvenating undead forever if your attack drops them to 0 hitpoints, no gaseous form for the vamps, no phylactery poofing for the liches, no going back to the corpse to rise again for ghosts, just plain destroyed at 0 hitpoints.
or
scout 3 / ranger 12 swift hunter build, pick elf, go elf racial sub for ranger 1 pick undead as your favored enemy (bonus = +3 instead of +2), NG with true beleiver for Ehlonna, buy some Raptor Arrows (MIC), get a splitting composite long bow, go to town; greater many shot every round no need to worry about restringing the raptor arrows.
or
Warlock 15 / (warlock infinity)
--be the guy with at will spell-likes that can make you the guy able to do what every one else cant; like shatter at will, fly at will, dimension door at will, acid/fire/cold damage at will, evard's black tentacles at will, dispel magic at will, 250 ranged weapon at will, invisibility at will, etc...
or
have you looked at Magic of Incarnum? can make some beastly characters that hate undead from that book.
or
Fighter 15 (lock down build), just put bane undead on your spiked chain a bunch of times for some beastly bonus damage dice (if dm allows), or just once; control the battlefield around your party. (don't forget ghost touch!)
or
Exalted Human Monk 15 (meaning take lots of exalted feats like vow of poverty, touch of golden ice, nimbus, stigmata, etc..) combined with the good feats from Libris Mortis to help keep you safe from undead attacks.
or
Wildshape Ranger 9 / Nature's Warrior 5 / Warshaper 1 - be what you want when you want to whoop butt
or
Fighter 1 / Barbarian 6 / Frenzied Berserker 8 - uber charger build with a twist, take Robilar's Gambit at 15th level, turn it on before you go nuts (cuz it isn't really tactical, its actually non-tactical to allow your opponent to hit you so you can hit them, perfect for a crazy dude who don't feel pain) that way after you charge and kill your target and murder your cleave target, any one else that swings at you gets thumped hard.
hope these help, rumble
Whoa, awesome suggestions!
I remember liking Bone Knight as a PrC, I'll look at that again.
Yup, I'll write up a Swift Hunter Build, that's sounds like a solid choice.
I've already been seriously considering Warlock. I've played 2 before, it's a fun class. When I mentioned the Fell Flight invocation, my DM made that sour face when a player suggests something that messes with your plans. He said I could have the ability to fly, but he'd prefer I didn't, because that would take away from the survival/thriller feel he's going for. I asked if Spiderwalk was an acceptable compromise, being on ceilings and going up walls, he seemed to think so. Everything else Warlock works for him.
I have a Longtooth Shifter Totemist I've really, really wanted to play. This campaign is not a good fit for him. I might get something from an Incarnate, I'll look into that.
Lockdown Fighter would be effective, but lacking in interesting versatility. I might make a Lockdown Crusader though.
Exalted Vow of Poverty builds leave a bad taste in my mouth, not sure why. Not a fan of Monks.
Wildshape Ranger could be cool, Nature's Warrior punches stuff real good, and I really like Warshaper as a PrC. I'll look at that.
Never really got into the Barbarian class, doesn't fit my personality to Roleplay. Shifter Totemist I could do, a bit more exotic and interesting, but Barbarian has always been "meh" to me. Your suggestion is still a solid build, but I'll pass in light of all these other good ones.
I second Xigbar - Swift Hunter. Not only do you get your Favored Enemy bonuses to undead, but with Swift Hunter you also deal Skirmish damage to them with impunity. Skirmish is great because it is only move dependent, no need for a flanker. Just get your Tumble up so you can auto-success a DC 15 to move without provoking AoO's and you're golden. I think 11 Ranger/4 Scout would even net you a Scout bonus feat too.
Yes, This would be excellent. I hadn't mentioned yet in the previous comments on Swift Hunter, but the skill selection would also serve me well.
if you're going up against masses of undead you might consider a weapon with the disruption quality on it
I'd very much enjoy making undead go "Poof", and this would be vital for the Zombie Horde scene. Yes, this is going into my arsenal.
Bane weapons don't suck, eitherl and are slightly cheaper than Disruption weapons.
Holy Weapons are also good.
Bonus: Bane & Holy weapons don't have the limitation of being Bludgeoning weapons only, like Disruption weapons.
This would all make a very, very excellent bow weapon for a Swift Hunter Build. I do believe I'm being persuaded. =)
Sounds like a litch I remember reading about a while ago xD May want to be on the look out for litches with powerful undead existing. Especially if it is the result of magic doing this. Dont know if you want to take that into account?
Yeah, good point. He's silent not only about what we'll fight on this demiplane, but how the demiplane came to exist in the first place. The creator could still be around, and if so, Lich is a serious possibility. I'll prepare for one, thanks!
Does your DM allow the Strongheat Vest to negate the ability damage from Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast? If so, you could do a Warlock/Hellfire Warlock.
Warlock gets Imbue Item at level 12, which allows them to craft with an UMD check. Grab Craft: Contingent Spell and have fun! Contingent Divine Power going off when you enter combat is very entertaining, especially if you use Edritch Glaive.
I strongly suggest you use some class with magical flight, since you want to be as far away from zombies as possible due to the biting, and the air is a very good place to be.
Strongheart Vest/Hellfire Warlock is a definite option.
Contingent Spell is likely to work, but unknown with the "Magic is wonky" thing. Eldritch Glaive is something I'm considering. I'd not thought to stack Divine Power, but I am now!
Because he asked so nicely, I'll be forgoing magical flight. he wants me to be subject to the possability of the biting.
Swift Hunter works, but they are SOOOO BORING! Move, shoot, repeat, ad nausium.
For the best bang for your buck, get a weapon that has both Bane Undead and Sacred (LM). Sacred is discount Holy. For only a +1 equiv instead of the full +2, you get +2d6 vs undead, +1d6 vs evil outsiders, and your weapon is aligned to good. So, for most of the things you'll be fighting, there is no noticable difference between Holy and Sacred, other than in your pocketbook. And later, when you have oodles of cashola burning a hole in your Haversack, you can get BOTH. It'll be at least a +5 weapon (+1 Bane Sacred Holy), but each hit nabs +6d6+2 extra damage, which isn't bad.
Starting at level 15, I can have a handful of sweet weapons if I don't go the Warlock or Dragonfire Adept option. I'll compare Sacred to Holy, thanks for pointing out the differences.
Something to note about ranger builds: The feat Unyielding Flame of Life from Faiths of Eberron allows anyone with Favored Enemy: Undead to use the FA bonus for saves against the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of undead.
Swift Hunter builds can have some very nice options, more for the ranger side though.
The Swift Hunter's Handbook might give some insights.
Sword of the Arcane Order is a great way to get more out of paladin or ranger casting, though it'll make you fairly MAD by needing at least a 14 Int. It's not full casting since you're normally limited by a ranger's 4th level spells, but more versatility is more power.
Combine with the Shooting Star substitution levels from Champions of Valor page 50 for extra spell slots, a form of Sending, and Invisibility and Word of Recall on your ranger spell list.
There's also a version of ranger that gets 6th level spells but I think it's Dragon Magazine material. If you'd like more details let me know and I'll scrounge them up.
As Dandu mentions, Warlock has some very fun options starting at 12th level.
Edit: It's Mystic Ranger from Dragon 336 that gets 0-5th spells. Just posting in case I come back and have to remember.
Thanks for Unquenchable Flame of Life, just one more in a growing list of reasons to go with Swift Hunter. I've read the handbook before some time ago, I'll give it some attention again. I may go with a non-spellcasting variant of Ranger, now that I know spellcastign will be different somehow.
What about Tomb-Tainted Soul feats? If this place is bubbling over with negative energy it would definitely work for roleplaying reasons.
Enduring/Lasting Life would help protect against negative levels.
You said that full casters are out. Does that include bards? A bard with the Requiem feat would be a potent ally.
I am considering Tomb Tainted Soul and Tomb-born Vitality. If I have the feats free and I make a build that will not be using any positive energy, those are on my list of options.
I forgot about Enduring Life and Lasting Life, I had made an NPC Lich Lackey once that had those. Also great suggestions, they're going on the "Possible feats" list.
Iffy about Bard.
~~Thanks everyone! Another option I'm considering for a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept would be all 3 levels of Heir of Siberys, Halfling Race, Mark of Healing. Since we don't use Action points in our games, my DM said he'd wave the Heroic Spirit feat prereq and considered Favored in House as the 1st level (and in this campaign, mostly useless) first level ability, but it would be worth it for a 2/day Mass Heal burst. In a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept build, I'd be trading 1 level of progression for essentially 2 undead killing, party saving Nukes. I'll see if it's useful in any other build, since the PrC provides 2 bonus feats of your choice at level 2 and 3.
So, builds I'll research:
-Swift Hunter Scout/Ranger
-Warlock/Hellfire Warlock (Maybe Halfling Heir of Siberys) (Maybe Tibbit for laser eyed, spiderwalk ceiling cat for the lolz.)
-Dragonfire Adept (Maybe Tibbit for fire breathing kitty)
-Incarnate
-Wildshape Ranger/Nature's Warrior/Warshaper. Possibly substitute Changeling or Shifter to meet Warshaper prereqs and tweak the Ranger.
-Crusader or Crusader/Swordsage dip.
-Paladin style build utilizing Turn Undead options and a number of possible PrCs.
-Binder
-Kensai into any of the above builds.
Feel free to keep the ideas coming!
