No longer his circus, no longer his monkeys

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Bawylie

A very OK person
Boehner pulled earmarks. At the time, it seemed like the right thing to do. (And as a libertarian, I freaking hate earmarks). So I supported it wholeheartedly. However, it's clear to me now (as it should've been) that money is the lubricant that makes compromise possible.

So without the ability to sweeten deals, and a chunk of the party representatives elected to grind things to a halt, things ground to a halt.

Now, again, I'm normally very fine with a government that doesnt do much. I'm less fine with a government that can't do anything. Believing in limited government means (for me at least) tolerating some amount of governance.

Boehner did about as well as anyone could've done. I hope the next guy reinstates earmarks, or something, so SOME stuff can happen. Like the stuff they're p much required to be doing.

The political football issues can take a hike, I don't care. But there are legit functions, bills to pay, work to do. They can screw around playing "who's the crappiest party?" after the work gets done. And the "grind to a halt" people need to differentiate between legit business and grandstanding. Jaysus.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
You've listed a bunch of reasons why things should be bad for the GOP (and Congress in general), but nothing you listed shows how the GOP would be able to improve their situation despite the presumed negative of the debt ceiling crisis.

Yes I did. When people elect Congresscritters, they are voting not for the party as a whole, but for the local individual (who, as stated, folks generally believe is better than the rest of Congress, the rest of the party). Thus, the party makes gains by way of individuals, not *as a group*.

I would argue, though, that they didn't actually improve their position - empirically, they are no better at getting things done, even with their supposed gains. They gained seats, but that only improves position if they are ideologically united, and work as a team, which they clearly aren't and don't. They gained seats, but only at the cost of depending on a coalition of groups that don't actually agree on how the country should be run. The result is an "improvement" on paper when you only paint in Blue and Red, but not actual improvement in getting policy enacted.
 

Orius

Legend
Well, there are a couple of effects at play there.

For example: Congressional approval ratings are low - right now they are at about 14% approval, and they were at the same place about this time last year.

However, folks generally *approve* of how their own congresscritter does their job. In September 2014, 54% of polled respondents think their own representation wass doing a good job. Typically, more than half of people think their own Congress members but also think the majority of the members of Congress are corrupt. You see similar skews on who gets attention - special interests or constituents. People generally feel that congress, on the whole, caters to special interests, but their own representative is better than Congress as a whole. Same for being out of touch. So, Congressmen are like kids - everyone thinks their own is above average.

Gerrymandering at work. I don't like the Democrats at all, but I'm in a district that's gerrymandered to be safe for Democrats, so naturally I don't care much for the Democrat who supposedly represents me in the House. But I'm also pissed at the state GOP who after the last two censuses gerrymandered things this way to keep their candidates safe even though I voted for their candidates. But since locally Democrats have a fairly big advantage in higher registration numbers, the GOP is at a disadvantage, so they just cut and run instead of building local support. I'm only registered as a Democrat because the local GOP is so pathetically impotent that local elections tend to get decided in the primaries, statewide GOP races (pretty much just the governor and US Senators) haven't been competitive in years, and presidential primaries are usually effectively over by the time Pennsylvania votes.

Thus, opinion of the party as a whole is not necessarily related to someone's opinion of their own representation. This is seen in the Tea Party today - they haven't formed their own party, but they don't generally approve of the GOP take on things, enough so that their representatives in Congress have their own caucus.

So, we have the situation where (of course) the GOP doesn't look good to the Democrats. But, to the classic GOP, the Tea Party is a problem. To the Tea Party, the classic GOP is a problem. Nobody really likes the GOP as a whole these days.

My take is that the GOP coalition from the Reagan era is breaking down. It's been over 35 years since it was formed, and the various social issues that were important to the American right have changed except for a few like abortion (and that particular issue has gone nowhere as long as I've been alive, it's like the freakin' Western Front in WWI). Political power is shifting from the Baby Boom to Generation X and millenials who have different views and priorities. Society is changing as well, things are not what they were in 1980, and some groups, the working class, are growing increasingly more frustrated as things change. Primary elections have gotten quite a bit more partisan, to where candidates have to pander to the more radical elements of the base to get nominated for the general elections, and then they have to swing to the center without being labeled as a flip-flopper, phony, or liar. Hell, the far right reveres Reagan as a great president and all that, but today, they'd call him a RINO and boot him out of office! It affects both parties (there are people on the far left who don't like Clinton and are throwing their support behind Sanders instead, but she'll likely win the primary and get their support except for the voters on the fringe who'll vote Green or Socialist or something, for example), but the Democrats are a bit more successful in reining in the radicals. Perhaps they're just more politically pragmatic and are more concerned about overall influence in Congress than ideological purity, or maybe the far left simply doesn't have the clout the far right does, so they can't pull the stunts the Tea Party's been doing.

I was sympathetic towards the Tea Party early on when their main focus was on cutting wasteful spending, but they've increasingly gotten more and more dominated by the isolationist, xenophobic, and religious elements of the right, none of which I like. None of them has any sort of political vision that can prevail into the future. They don't kmow how to pick their battles either. They want to win everything, which is impossible, since Obama will just veto most if not everything they want, there's enough Democrats in Congress to sustain the veto, and the Tea Party seems to be so math deficient that they can't count the votes they actually have. So they have a situation where they have to pick what's really important to them and make lesser sacrifices to prevail. They're incapable of that. Unfortunately, the more moderate wing of the GOP is saddled with a not entirely undeserved reputation for being uncaring, wealthy, elitist hardasses and/or racists and don't have enough power to challence the radicals. They can thank clinging to the Southern Strategy for too long for that, supporting too much corporate welfare, and not doing enough to strengthen their hand in swing regions, and now it's hurting them badly.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
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Gerrymandering at work.

Gerrymandering is a major issue, but it does not explain how someone likes their own representative, while thinking poorly of all the rest, regardless of party. You'd imagine rather the opposite, as part of the point of gerrymandering is to focus efforts - there is little campaigning going on in gerrymandered districts, so folks are not fed so strong a line of how good their congressperson is. Gerrymandering generally results in low voter turnout (because, why bother?), which should lead to very little voter investment in their congressional representation.

So, I don't think gerrymandering explains the data. Basic and common human psychology, "that *mine* is better than average," I think better explains what's seen.

My take is that the GOP coalition from the Reagan era is breaking down.

You're talking a little longer term than I am, but I don't disagree. I was speaking of the coalition with the Tea Party. But, I might say that the rise of the Tea Party was actually a major step in the break down of the Reagan coalition, as it represents a section of the party that no longer believes the party as a whole represents their desires.

And the breakdown of Reagan's coalition is, in turn, really a breakdown of the Southern Strategy on which Reagan's was based.

It's been over 35 years since it was formed, and the various social issues that were important to the American right have changed except for a few like abortion

I would say the social end of the conservative platform hasn't changed much since the Reagan era, and that's a problem because the world is changing around them.

Perhaps they're just more politically pragmatic and are more concerned about overall influence in Congress than ideological purity, or maybe the far left simply doesn't have the clout the far right does, so they can't pull the stunts the Tea Party's been doing.

Well, you noted above - since at least the Reagan Era, the GOP has been *actively courting* the far right. There have been party people helping them organize, whipping them up and telling them that what they want is okay, and that they can make a difference - the image of them being "grass roots" is not actually very accurate, in that sense. The GOP put effort (and a lot of money) into building up the clout of the far right. The Democrats have not done the same with their more radical elements.

In essence, the GOP is Dr. Frankenstein. They have created their own monster, and now must deal with it.

They don't know how to pick their battles either. They want to win everything, which is impossible, since Obama will just veto most if not everything they want, there's enough Democrats in Congress to sustain the veto, and the Tea Party seems to be so math deficient that they can't count the votes they actually have.

The more cynical among them probably knows that. But, you see, fighting the good fight - refusing to back down on *anything* - increases the support they get from their base. To the radical end of anything, ideological purity is often more important than getting results.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Gerrymandering is one of those things that both parties do, and I wish we could just get made illegal because it is antidemocratic and generally creates more problems than it solves. There is some whiff that it may yet be struck down, but that movement will probably take decades to get any serious political force behind it. I have to ponder which party will go for it first and hardest, though. While the Democrats would seem to have the most to gain by it, the GOP has truly refined the method to a fine art...but they're also being damaged by it.

Here's what I mean: traditional gerrymandered districts are drawn in such a way as to produce unassailable political advantages. Candidates win with huge margins of victories- often exceeding 30%. That's the way most state Democratic Party majorities playing the game still do things. The past decade or so, though, GOP strategists learned they could gerrymander in such a way as to reduce their margins of victories to lower double digits- safe, but still daunting 15%+ margins- while picking up seats by spreading their voters among other districts enough to get similar victory margins OR make former Democratically-held strongholds into toss-up districts. It has been VERY effective.

...And it is biting the GOP in their collective tuchus right now: a goodly number of the party's far right representatives came from such districts, and not only do they not fear the Democrats, they're also virtually immunized from a need to follow GOP leadership on anything.
 



Orius

Legend
Gerrymandering is a major issue, but it does not explain how someone likes their own representative, while thinking poorly of all the rest, regardless of party. You'd imagine rather the opposite, as part of the point of gerrymandering is to focus efforts - there is little campaigning going on in gerrymandered districts, so folks are not fed so strong a line of how good their congressperson is. Gerrymandering generally results in low voter turnout (because, why bother?), which should lead to very little voter investment in their congressional representation.

So, I don't think gerrymandering explains the data. Basic and common human psychology, "that *mine* is better than average," I think better explains what's seen.

Well, there's probably two other factors I overlooked as well.

First, there's 435 members of the House, so a lot of them are going to be pretty obscure. Not everyone is represented by one of the big names like Boehner or Pelosi, and when they blame both parties, it's probably blame on the leadership. If their rep is a lesser-known member who isn't bloviating regularly on CNN or C-SPAN or something, a voter might figure "He/she's not part of the problem" and blame everyone else. It's nonsense of course, because the Reps usually tend to vote with the rest of the party, if they don't, they don't get leadership positions, they don't get seats on the committees and so on. Party leadership won't pay them much heed if they stray too often. But gerrymandering may play some part here because of partisan loyalties -- when you've got a safe seat, the rep is probably the same party as the majority of active voters, so they're probably going to be inclined to be more forgiving of the rep.

Second, there's pork and earmarks. Technically, they're not the same, but they tend to get lumped together. It's the money that gets things done in Congress, but it's also what bloats the budget, often needlessly (like the infamous Bridge to Nowhere). This is another way legislators get support, they can brag about how they obtained federal funding for the district which gets them support and approval.

You're talking a little longer term than I am, but I don't disagree. I was speaking of the coalition with the Tea Party. But, I might say that the rise of the Tea Party was actually a major step in the break down of the Reagan coalition, as it represents a section of the party that no longer believes the party as a whole represents their desires.

...

And the breakdown of Reagan's coalition is, in turn, really a breakdown of the Southern Strategy on which Reagan's was based.

Yeah, I'm looking back to the late 60's/early 70's to explain the current dynamics, because a lot of it to me has been driven by the Baby Boom's participation in American politics, though they didn't start taking over until they '80s.

I would say the social end of the conservative platform hasn't changed much since the Reagan era, and that's a problem because the world is changing around them.

To some degree, yes. For me it depends on the reasons for the views, traditions, and values conservatives support. I don't support conservative views that originated in protecting the privileges of one class, religion, or race over another, I see that as against basic American ideals to begin with. I don't support views that were important in the past but don't really apply today becuase the views have become obsolete. I do support the sort of values that tend to be timeless, values that society needs to function properly. One of the biggest weaknesses in any conservative movement IMO is the tendancy to romaticize the past and not see the problems.

Well, you noted above - since at least the Reagan Era, the GOP has been *actively courting* the far right. There have been party people helping them organize, whipping them up and telling them that what they want is okay, and that they can make a difference - the image of them being "grass roots" is not actually very accurate, in that sense. The GOP put effort (and a lot of money) into building up the clout of the far right. The Democrats have not done the same with their more radical elements.

I think perhaps that Democrats don't bother because they know far left isn't likely to vote Republican in the general elections. So if they can win without radical support, they'll court the middle instead. That sometimes is a problem for them when the GOP successfully mobilizes and achieves victories.

In essence, the GOP is Dr. Frankenstein. They have created their own monster, and now must deal with it.

Yes, unfortunately. Since the GOP is more likely to side with my views, I don't like seeing them commit political suicide at the behest of the far right. What they need to do is build up real political support from the center, particulalry from minority voters instead of playing gamews with gerrymandering and voter registration. Without building the party base outside the far right, they're not going to get long-term victories.

Gerrymandering is one of those things that both parties do, and I wish we could just get made illegal because it is antidemocratic and generally creates more problems than it solves. There is some whiff that it may yet be struck down, but that movement will probably take decades to get any serious political force behind it. I have to ponder which party will go for it first and hardest, though. While the Democrats would seem to have the most to gain by it, the GOP has truly refined the method to a fine art...but they're also being damaged by it.

Here's what I mean: traditional gerrymandered districts are drawn in such a way as to produce unassailable political advantages. Candidates win with huge margins of victories- often exceeding 30%. That's the way most state Democratic Party majorities playing the game still do things. The past decade or so, though, GOP strategists learned they could gerrymander in such a way as to reduce their margins of victories to lower double digits- safe, but still daunting 15%+ margins- while picking up seats by spreading their voters among other districts enough to get similar victory margins OR make former Democratically-held strongholds into toss-up districts. It has been VERY effective.

...And it is biting the GOP in their collective tuchus right now: a goodly number of the party's far right representatives came from such districts, and not only do they not fear the Democrats, they're also virtually immunized from a need to follow GOP leadership on anything.

That shows the GOP can be smart, very smart really when they want to, regardless of what liberals think. They know that they don't need landslides to win, just majorities. So by going for smaller margins which are still safe, they can spread their influence in the House out more. But it's probably not just votes in Congress, they may be looking at electoral votes too. Which is another short-sighted problem: during the last century, holding the presidency became more important for them (perhaps one reason they hated Clinton so much). But the president doesn't make the laws, Congress does. So without controlling Congress (and that includes the Senate where they can't make safe seats), they get less influence on the laws that are made. Sure, the president can veto, but that's reactive.


That should never have been a huge issue to begin with.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Yes, unfortunately. Since the GOP is more likely to side with my views, I don't like seeing them commit political suicide at the behest of the far right. What they need to do is build up real political support from the center, particulalry from minority voters instead of playing gamews with gerrymandering and voter registration. Without building the party base outside the far right, they're not going to get long-term victories.

I think that danger is part of what John McCain percieved in all those decades pre-2008 when he warned his fellow Republicand against excessive entanglement with the religious right.

That shows the GOP can be smart, very smart really when they want to, regardless of what liberals think.

Few politicians at that level are stupid, regardless of party. Regardless of my opinion of Ted Cruz's ideas, ideology, and implementation of same, he DID graduate from Princeton Univerisity & Harvard Law School- both with honors- and clerked for Justice Rehnquist of the SCOTUS. Dumb people don't do that.

I've seen Newt Gingrich give speeches. After some of them, I watched him come up with solid workable solutions for questions raised during the Q&A sessions, some of which might be at odds with GOP orthodoxy, and others that, despite conformity, might be palatable to the Left. Off the cuff. Dumb people don't do that, either.

Underestimate politicians' intellect at your own risk. Their sanity, OTOH, is always a matter of concern...

That should never have been a huge issue to begin with.
Agreed.

What I'm hoping is that this is a sign that the moderate & liberal elements of the GOP will continue to work with moderate & conservative Dems to actually govern the country responsibly, as opposed to governing from manufactured crisis to manufactured crisis. You know, like in the pre-Gingrich era legislatures.

After all, "compromise" is not a four letter word...
 
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