D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Web also gets better at high levels than low levels. At 3rd level, a creature making a Strength check to break out of your web has a decent chance of beating your save DC despite the fact that it doesn’t add its proficiency to the roll. Even strong characters have less than a 50% chance to beat a save DC of 18 or 19. And it’s a check not a save so it bypasses legendary resistances.

Not bad for a 2nd level multi-target spell!
Most of the time, if I cast Web, the melee either blunder into it on purpose or even light it on fire, all to get at the bad guys. The idea that it's meant to give us some breathing room apparently does not compute in their brains.

Heck, one time, I cast Hypnotic Pattern, and someone deliberately attacked an enemy affected by it! When I asked, "why would you do that?", he made some lame excuse like "my character has no idea what your spell does", even though I told the whole group when my Sorcerer learned it!

I wonder if I'm the only one who has ever had these problems when trying to use control spells...
 

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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
One of the smartest decisions they made with 5e was to set up the XP table so that levels 1 and 2 are intentionally much faster than the rest - they get parties into the "sweet spot" as fast as possible.

It sounds like your ideal would potentially be to leave those two levels alone and then slow the rate down. Or maybe not. :)
Probably not. My ideal would be to never play them in the first place, starting at level 3, reaching level 4 by the end of the first session, and gaining another level every two to four weeks from there on out (preferably on the lower end). That way, the actually interesting (albeit weakly balanced at best) levels actually, y'know, happen. At ~3 weeks per level plus the first session to hit 4, that would be 49 weeks, assuming weekly sessions, so counting a few weeks off here and there, that's a full year campaign, plus whatever time is spent at 20 itself to wrap things up.

In a game with more competent characters, I'm quite comfortable with even like one level per month kind of stuff. I like, even prefer, long-running campaigns in other editions and systems.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I wonder if I'm the only one who has ever had these problems when trying to use control spells...
The answer to "am I the only one" questions is usually no, unless one is restricting things to a fairly small set of people (e.g. a single roomful.)

Frankly though, it sounds like your fellow players are being jerks. Whether this is intentional or accidental is mostly irrelevant.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I wonder if I'm the only one who has ever had these problems when trying to use control spells...
The plural of anecdote isn't evidence, but I'll add my experience to this.

A lot of groups I'm in run less-than-perfect strategy. Which I'm OK with! Honestly, from a watsonian perspective, there SHOULDN'T be perfect strategy!

It does feel a bit like a symptom of D&D's complexity, though, that a lot of players are concerned with what their character does in a round, and not with what the party does as a whole with their round.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
The plural of anecdote isn't evidence, but I'll add my experience to this.

A lot of groups I'm in run less-than-perfect strategy. Which I'm OK with! Honestly, from a watsonian perspective, there SHOULDN'T be perfect strategy!

It does feel a bit like a symptom of D&D's complexity, though, that a lot of players are concerned with what their character does in a round, and not with what the party does as a whole with their round.
Perfect? No. But if my job is to keep enemies funneled until my party can deal with them, the idea that my own spell effects suddenly make the combat more difficult is obnoxious, lol.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Because feat chains or prereqs are not fun in most campaings. This style of play is great for 1-shots but horrible for campaings, especially story-driven camapaings where players want their character to grow based on the story.

A LOT of players don't want to "choose" their 12th level feat at 4th level. The want to take what they want (or alternatively what the story dictates) at 4th level and not worry about having the right prerequisite in place for something else down the road at a level they may not even get to or worse with a story that does not end up driving the character towards that feat they prepped for.
5e itself is bad for this style of play. Multiclassing based on story is too difficult since it's likely you don't coincidentally have the stats for it, and you can't add in new subclasses like you could prestige classes in 3e that fit the story. The lack of feat diversity is also a detriment to this style of play.

I adored 3e for this style of play and it's still my favorite edition because of it. 5e I really like, but is a major let down in this area.
 

ECMO3

Hero
You'd think so, but I've still heard many complaints about the xp tables and how they just make for this rapid advancement that they don't care for.

Have you actually heard complaints from players in-game about leveling too fast? I honestly have never heard this.

I have heard players whine about it taking too long to level, and whine that the DM is finishing the campaign at level X instead of letting them go to level Y and I have even heard whining that "the adventure says we should be level Z at this part and you haven't let us get to that level yet" ..... but I have never heard a complaint about leveling too fast.

I've also seen players moan about not getting any XP when they decided to just randomly kill things to try to get that last little bit to get a level.
 

SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself
I have heard players whine about it taking too long to level, and whine that the DM is finishing the campaign at level X instead of letting them go to level Y and I have even heard whining that "the adventure says we should be level Z at this part and you haven't let us get to that level yet" ..... but I have never heard a complaint about leveling too fast.
I have found this to be true across the years. I have never heard players talking about how fast they are levelling or how quickly they advance. This seems to be almost an entirely DM concern. And I get it, because a lot of the time DMs have issues running at higher levels. The campaign I'm in right now (sorry for bringing this up again) transitioned from 3.5 where the group threatened to rage quit, to 5E where we just finished a chapter and people had a really good time.

I'm not the biggest fan of 5E but now that I've played it at high levels (we did level 12-14) I find that it runs perfectly fine. And I was happy to play it at those levels. For what it's worth, the DM switched to using Milestone advancement, so we kept a decent place based on the in game things we did.
 

ECMO3

Hero
5e itself is bad for this style of play. Multiclassing based on story is too difficult since it's likely you don't coincidentally have the stats for it, and you can't add in new subclasses like you could prestige classes in 3e that fit the story. The lack of feat diversity is also a detriment to this style of play.

I have multiclassed for story reasons before, but you are correct it is stat-limited. It is generall a lot easier if you roll abilities though. That said I was talking about feats

It is very easy to tie 5E feats into story elements, things like Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, Eldritch Adept, the Dragon feats all have specific story elements already baked-in and many others like Magic Initiate, Chef, Skulker, Observant, Actor etc all have some implied story elements. And the thing is you can take them all whenever the story dictates it.

I adored 3e for this style of play and it's still my favorite edition because of it. 5e I really like, but is a major let down in this area.

IME is a lot easier to do this in 5E than 3E. You mention how hard it is to multiclass in 5E - if you multiclass in 3E at a high level you lose xps. If you take 2 1 level dips now you are down 40% and the prestige classes are not an answer as they all have prerequisites, again meaning you have to start "bulding the story" long before the story happens.

For example: Your good Elf Fighter is 7th level and after going through the Shadowfell, wants to incorporate that into his character and turn him into a sneaky magic assassin type. You can't take the Assassin prestige class because you aren't evil. There is the Shadowdancer prestige class, which fits perfectly, but you don't have any of the feat or skill prerequisites and you don't have a single point in hide or move silently ..... you could multiclass into Rogue to start building them, but then there is a 20% XP penalty and without bounded accuracy it is going to be 4 levels or so before you are any good at it, completely derailing your character and THEN after you get those prereqs you can start building into the shadowdancer prestige class.

Meanwhile the 7th level 5E Fighter just takes Ranger at the very next level, picks up stealth expertise and overnight goes from being below average in stealth to being a master at stealth. One level and he is already over halfway there! At Ranger 3 he has the Gloomstalker subclass, at Ranger 4 the skulker feat and then back to Fighter 8 and the Shadow Touched feat. He immediately changes his character at the next level and grows into the new vision over a few levels.

Now there are ability limits, and I need at least a 13 Dex and Wisdom to work this. But there are other options that do largely the same thing - If I don't have the Wisdom but do have the dex I can do the same with Rogue-Assasin. If I don't have the dex but I have a 13 Charisma I can even go Whispers Bard and on a poor Dex and with expertise I can still be really good sneaking around. All 3 of these can give the same sort of creepy-night flavor - sneaking around and being able to "sneak attack".
 
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payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
IME is a lot easier to do this in 5E than 3E. You mention how hard it is to multiclass in 5E - if you multiclass in 3E at a high level you lose xps. If you take 2 1 level dips now you are down 40% and the prestige classes are not an answer as they all have prerequisites, again meaning you have to start "bulding the story" long before the story happens.
I've never seen anyone actually use those rules. Though, I do agree prestige classes require thought from level 1 and are not organic to play in 3E.
 

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