D&D 5E No One Plays High Level?

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Like, DnD4 went to level 30 without the issues that 3e and 5e have. Clearly the higher levels were meant to work there.

I think it is important to point out that while 4e went to level 30, all it did was stretch level 20 up to lvl 30z The highest level spell was still wish. It was just called a 29th level spell instead of a 9th level one (IIRC).

 

[Shiroiken]

I've played/ran a high level game in every edition (meaning level 15 or higher), and the only edition I ever really saw problems was in 3E. Some of those same issues exist in 5E, but the concentration and attunement mechanics keeps them from being severe. I think that high levels should always be an option, but due to the nature of the game, there's always going to be a "sweet spot" that most games are going to end during.

 

[grimmgoose]

Gating the TRULY powerful spells as being rituals is something I'm definitely a fan of.

You can then make casting the spell a big adventure itself, the correct components, the correct situation, etc.

That's how wish works in my game world.

It isn't just a "spell" that you get at level-up. It's a world-shaking, massively-important, kings-would-sacrifice-their-entire-nation-for Power.

You have to find it. You have to learn how to cast it. And then you have to find a specific location on the planet where the actual planet can survive the spell being casted.

Is that a bunch of hoops to hop through? Yes. And that's intentional. The good side is that means I don't have to monkey's paw anything. It just works.

 

[Shardstone]

it does turn into an Anime sort of game eventually.

This is why I've never had a problem. I grew up on anime, still watch it and read manga. When it comes to high-level stuff, I have a thousand and one inspirations for what to do. Hunter X Hunter is essentially the best guide I could have asked for -- it applies logical human exploitation to magical powers to show you what kinds of shenanigans people can get up to, then it shows you what happens when something with an unmatched power shows up and how people respond to it.

 

[jgsugden]

You don't think either of those (completely off the cuff) examples would make use of high level abilities? I just said high level abilities would not automatically negate those kinds of adventures.

What do you think high level.PCs should be doing that they can't do at lower tiers?

Using high level abilities.

When PCs advance to the higher level they gat access to abilities, often magic, that trivialize many things. As discussed above, many DMs tend to try to negate or limit these capabilities in order to run a games that are like lower level games. When the DM does this, they often prevent the higher level PC fromn using their powerful abilities by saying that they just don't work, or someone has some countering magic, or some other folley. Rather than celebrate what makes a high level PC different, they attempt to make the high level PC fit into the cookie mold of a lower level PC.

He may have been prepared for other options, but what actually happened (and what we all saw) was basically a big standard 5e combat. The takeaway from that example is that high level D&D is the same game as always with bigger numbers.

Absolutely not. One result is not indicative of all results - and that is exactly the mentality I counsel against for enjoyable high level play.

Don't get me wrong. I expect there to be high level combats filled with powerful abilities at high level. The players have many routes and options at higher level, but combat is going to be an often executed option.

However, when it is, it isn't just bigger numbers. The nature of the abilities change the combat. There is no lower level, "You just die" spell. There is no equivalent to Foresight or Timestop. The high level magics - and high level abilities of many of the classes - change how the game works. Your argument was mostly true about 4E - it was just a numbers game there - but not true of 5E, 3E or earlier editions. The game is designed to change in how it functions as higher level abilities are accessed and new opportunities arise.

If you're running high level games and they work - great. If you're finding your games fall apart, consider rethinking your approach as I've suggested to see if you're leaving opportunity on the floor. Essentially, if you ever negate or lament the abilities of a PC - you're not creating the environment that I've found best supports high level play. If you celebrate how awesome the PCs are and how much they can achieve and let them achieve those things ... and oppose them with larger problems that require solutions that they have to assemble ... well, it works really well.

 

[Vaalingrade]

it does turn into an Anime sort of game eventually.

Yeah, people just keep cooking really good meals like in Food Wars, and then form comedy action found families like in spy X Family. Then they start tackling social anxiety disorders like in Komi Can't Communicate and making fan comics like in Comic Party.

So anime.

Why can't they be Live Action like notable down to earth series Fast and the Furious, Kingsmen and Die Hard?

 

[nevin]

Yeah, people just keep cooking really good meals like in Food Wars, and then form comedy action found families like in spy X Family. Then they start tackling social anxiety disorders like in Komi Can't Communicate and making fan comics like in Comic Party.

So anime.

Why can't they be Live Action like notable down to earth series Fast and the Furious, Kingsmen and Die Hard?

because trying to play die hard as a dnd Game is just a low level game with really high numbers. Most High level dungeon are just Die Hard the party.

 

[nevin]

though the opposite Frazier where everyone role play's thier angst for 60 hour's per hour of combat is just as bad.

 

[JAMUMU]

I love high level play, by which I mean 14+. And I don't just mean with older editions but also with 5e. High level play takes D&D and pushes it out towards the event horizon. It's a chance to take things beyond what normally constitutes a D&D game. It isn't about dungeons, it isn't even about domain level play (that's 9-14). It's all about reverse-dungeons in hell and extradimensional spaceships and taking on the gods, or the PCs shedding their mortal selves and becoming divine powers involved in the Time War. Or better yet, building a reverse-hell-dungeons on spaceships to take on the time gods so they can use their divine power to destabilise the multiverse in just the right way.

In short, I think this intermeme sums up the many joys of high level play:

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is why I've never had a problem. I grew up on anime, still watch it and read manga. When it comes to high-level stuff, I have a thousand and one inspirations for what to do. Hunter X Hunter is essentially the best guide I could have asked for -- it applies logical human exploitation to magical powers to show you what kinds of shenanigans people can get up to, then it shows you what happens when something with an unmatched power shows up and how people respond to it.

Wheras for me, virtually all of my formative experiences with fantasy are western. Never did anything resembling anime until I was in my 30s.