No Prestige classes allowed

[Mallus]

I've often wondered what organization obsession is.

Some people like to marry the game mechanics to the seting. Prestige classes are an obvious place to do that. So say "Knight of the Round Table" has both a specific narrative and mechanical meaning.

I like PrC's relating to specific in-game organizations (like my homebrew CITY's Barristers, Lovesworn, and Gondoliers), but not neccessarily for every PrC.

 

[Cor Azer]

I've often wondered what organization obsession is. Does there really need to be a cabal of whipmasters or acrobats out there in order for me to take the lasher or thief-acrobat PrC? If you needed an organization to become a specialist, how did the first specialists ever come into existence?

No, I don't think you have to be part of a circus or some such to be a thief-acrobat or a cabalish whipmaster to be a lasher. That siad, I think the idea behind theif-acrobat and lashers are dull for prestige classes - they could be handled much better with feats.

I've seen some books with prestige classes for Midshipman and the like. That's not a prestige class - at best, that's a feat that gives some bonuses to sailing. On the other hand, being named First Mate of the Redstorm Pirates is a significant achievement, likely due not only to your skills (skills and feat requirements), but also due to who you know (special requirements such as belonging to the Redstorm Pirates).

 

[Cergorach]

Sounds to me like a DM who lost control of his game.

No offense Crothian, but in a lot of games the DM just isn't the 'boss', and he shouldn't be. You have a group of folk that are all equal, only one of them is the DM and his voice isn't more important then the rest of the group.

In my case we are a group of five friends, we started playing D&D 3E when before there were any PrCs, when they were introduced they were managable even with a couple of splat books and a few dragons. The general rule was that anything offical was fair game in the game (would work it in the campaign somehow), then the splat books kept comming and comming... Another thing is that the first ten levels all this crap somehow seems managable, it's only when the complexity of high levels reaches a certain point that all the player options start working against the DM (certain combos start to become extremely powerfull). Then it's a little late to start backing away when folks have bought most of the splat books.

Not to mention thatt the players consist of a politician, a political-sciences student, a physisist, and a psychologist. Me, the lone computer tech, kind of draws the short end of the stick with that crowd ;-)

Well, Cergorach, what advice should or could the DMG possibly offer, other than what it does? A DM's got to say up-front what he does or doesn't like. If that means players won't play his campaign, he either has to relent or accept the situation.

Maybe the one thing I would like to see is an official chacklist maintained on the WotC website.

Remember that's in the DMG and most PrCs are in the splat books that only mention all the kewl new toys, not every player has the DMG or reads it from a DMs perspective. While the "all the rules are optional" is often mentioned in game products, that particular argument won't fly with PrCs, feats, and spells. Those are integral parts of the game as it's presented (otherwise it wouldn't be present in every single gaming supplement), the existance of this thread and similar ones are another indication of the assumption of PrCs being core rules. While it's (suprisingly) clear in the DMG if you read the correct two paragraphs (the very first in the chapter and the last before the actual PrCs), it isn't mentioned in the splat books at all, creating different expectations for the DM and the players...

My preference would be to have a section in the PHB explaining some of the optional rules that are present in the DMG, something like "Optional Rule: Prestige Classes" and/or explaining in each player targeted splat book that all these options are in fact optional and the DM should be consulted before assuming that it can be used in the campaign. Clearifying why the DM might not want the PrCs/feats/spells/classes in the campaign might also make the DMs job a bit easier.

The 3E rules are a lot clearer then previous editions, so clear in fact that there is very little DM ruling necessary. That has huge advantages, i've also found that players get used to this and (subconciously) try to move away from as many DM rulings as possible (because most rules are already codified), leaving the DM as the storyteller.

I have decided to throw in the expert card fro now on. I'm the DM, not the boss, but there are certain things that can make life difficult as a DM, i don't have the time anymore for that. If you want to play in a fun campaign you will listen to me, and trust i will listen to you, but there are certain aspects that i won't budge on. You (as a group) can virtually decide the kind of Camaign we will play, but the DM will regulate the flow of information and rules. I know what i'm doing and you will trust me to do it right! ;-)

 

[nharwell]

My favorite system for creating characters is Grim Tales. Just 6 generic base classes, no multiclassing penalties, pick the core skills and abilities you want, and voila, no need for overly-specific and limited-focus classes or prestige classes.

Overall, I don't like the class = job mentality that 3.x has, both with core classes and prestige classes.

It's not so bad with the core classes (but it's still there - what if you want a rogue without sneak attack or a unarmed non-monk brawler? Those archetypes are tough to do with core classes alone) but with every book that comes out, the new classes and prestige classes get more and more specific. Whatever happened to the idea that core classes were supposed to be generic?

The more generic the system, the better IMO. Actually require the player to have a character concept and choose the abilities they want rather than thumbing through a ton of splat books to find the uberest prestige class they can.

Amen!

 

[Crothian]

No offense Crothian, but in a lot of games the DM just isn't the 'boss', and he shouldn't be. You have a group of folk that are all equal, only one of them is the DM and his voice isn't more important then the rest of the group.

I was reply specifically to the idea of an arms race. In my mind that's a bad thing. Am I wrong? Is the idea of an arms race between players and DMs good now?

Unless everyone is willing to DM and actually good at it, the DM has quite a bit of power. They are not equal. Unless the players are also putting in extra time between sessions like most DMs do. Even then the roles of the DM and player are so vastly different that they just are not on equal footing. That doesn't mean the DM gets to be a tyrant and rule over the players and do whatever the hell he wants though. A good DM in my mind will listen to the wants of the players to make sure his game matches what the players want.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I've often wondered what organization obsession is. Does there really need to be a cabal of whipmasters or acrobats out there in order for me to take the lasher or thief-acrobat PrC? If you needed an organization to become a specialist, how did the first specialists ever come into existence?

I think it puts the cart before the horse to assume that organisations have to be found for all prestige classes; I think the concept of lasher or acrobats as a prestige class is a symptom of the original flaw that WotC introduced into the concept.

In my first 3e campaign I had several prestige classes available. There were the sword coast duellists (if you wanted to learn to be a duellist you had to be from there or study there), there were the chosen of Asura from the religious land of Singh, The Tillanian dragonfriends who had to perform a quest into the dragondell, the Damdzan Mercenaries who operate out of a castle in Caran pass, Mendonnan Assassins from a desert facing city-state.

The prestige classes were each attractive in various ways, but they were intimately tied into the setting.

Things like a whip specialist or acrobat specialist? I would have allowed feats or feat chains to enable fun new things, but certainly wouldn't introduce a prestige class for the

 

[brehobit]

My only beef with PrCs (and I've had them in my games to some extent) is the pre-planning required to get there. I think it makes characters less organic and contributes to some of the munchkiny crap that annoys me (the 'I'll take 1 level of this and 1 level of that and this feat from this splatbook and I can qualify for Ubermage a level early' stuff).

I'd rather have seen PrCs with most (but not all) of the requirements on the back-end, not the front.

I agree with this and _really_ like the backend requirements. I don't mind "X ranks in Y" or "+5 BAB" but when the list grows crazy long it really kills flexibility...

 

[smootrk]

I also agree with the pre-planning necessary to get into them. I think this pre-planning and the steep requirements are the main reason that more people do not explore PRC options. For some PRCs like Archmage, the requirements make a lot of sense, as it is a sort of an EPIC PRC, but for others, the PRC's are simply a function of belonging to an organization, or another specific kind of character concept like Catburgling Acrobats, which really ought to be a viable function right from level one.

This is why I re-design interesting PRCs for easier entry, usually from the ground-up, doing what I can to rebalance the class as a whole. I want characters who involve themselves with the campaign specific concepts, to have easy access, not struggle with (often) arbitrarily assigned prerequisites or skills that have little use in play other than as stepping stones to specific PRCs. Let them eat cake.

 

[Hussar]

I think that there are a number of PrC's that could be switched into substution levels and incorporated into a base clase. Take the Theif Acrobat as a poster child for this. Toss in substitution levels every two or three levels of whatever class and you have an acrobat. The idea that you have to switch into an entirely new class is perhaps a stumbling point for most people.

 

[Psion]

I think that there are a number of PrC's that could be switched into substution levels and incorporated into a base clase.

Ironic, since it was an early version of a PrC...