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Noble : A martial controller.
- Thread starter Modeus
- Start date
Cwheeler
First Post
Interesting idea, not sure how well it would work in practice though. It could be far to easy to utterly disable a noble's minions.
When I read 'Noble: Martial controller', I was expecting something more like a skilled weapons master with a nimble blade and a biting tongue. With your choice of class skills (which I agree with, BTW), I was somehow even expecting some abilities that used social interaction in combat to fulfill a controller's role... (not sure how you'd pull that one off, but it could be interesting).
As it reads, the noble just hides while others do the work.
My other issue is one of suspension of disbelief. I just can't see a logical setup where there are extra minions continually pouring in to wherever the adventurers happen to be... It's almost like the concept would work more logically as an arcane summoning, or a character that created and tinkered with constructs.
An interesting and adventurous effort though: let us know how it goes in playtests..
When I read 'Noble: Martial controller', I was expecting something more like a skilled weapons master with a nimble blade and a biting tongue. With your choice of class skills (which I agree with, BTW), I was somehow even expecting some abilities that used social interaction in combat to fulfill a controller's role... (not sure how you'd pull that one off, but it could be interesting).
As it reads, the noble just hides while others do the work.
My other issue is one of suspension of disbelief. I just can't see a logical setup where there are extra minions continually pouring in to wherever the adventurers happen to be... It's almost like the concept would work more logically as an arcane summoning, or a character that created and tinkered with constructs.
An interesting and adventurous effort though: let us know how it goes in playtests..
FireLance
Legend
I think the base idea is quite creative. 
Mechanics-wise, it might be better to allow each enemy to be attacked only once regardless of how many minions it is adjacent to, or it might become too easy to focus damage. This would emphasize the controller nature of the class. Additional adjacent minions might provide a bonus to the attack roll instead.
Flavor-wise, I think some might find the ability to summon minions anywhere (potentially, in the dungeon, the wilderness, hostile lands, or other planes) to be too unrealistic for the martial power source. However, if you re-flavor it as a necromancer with a horde of undead minions, or a variant summoner with a group of creatures instead of a single, more powerful one (depending on the type of creatures summoned, the power source could be arcane, divine, primal or even psionic), it might be a better way to express the idea of a character who controls the battlefield through the use of minions.
Mechanics-wise, it might be better to allow each enemy to be attacked only once regardless of how many minions it is adjacent to, or it might become too easy to focus damage. This would emphasize the controller nature of the class. Additional adjacent minions might provide a bonus to the attack roll instead.
Flavor-wise, I think some might find the ability to summon minions anywhere (potentially, in the dungeon, the wilderness, hostile lands, or other planes) to be too unrealistic for the martial power source. However, if you re-flavor it as a necromancer with a horde of undead minions, or a variant summoner with a group of creatures instead of a single, more powerful one (depending on the type of creatures summoned, the power source could be arcane, divine, primal or even psionic), it might be a better way to express the idea of a character who controls the battlefield through the use of minions.
RangerWickett
Legend
In my opinion it needs tweaking, for flavor and balance.
I like the concept of having minions fight for you, but it feels very much like ignoring narrative in favor of game mechanics. Why can only a noble get people to fight for him, but not a warlord, or a charismatic rogue?
Also, the idea of new minions just appearing out of nowhere because you need reinforcements is wacky. I think with a slight adjust to the minion mechanics, though, you can tweak the flavor to be more believable.
In my game, we use a slightly modified minion system, detailed here - 4e Fan Creations and House Rules - EN World D&D / RPG News
I think you could set up your noble so that he has four loyal followers, which count as minions of his level. They would have four states instead of three - fine, bloodied, down, and dead. Fine and bloodied work as normal. When one of your minions goes to 0, he's down (unconscious).
Killing one of your minions is hard. They might go down fast, but they're scrappy. If your minion is fine, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to 5 + twice your level (basically, his hit points plus your level). If he's bloodied, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to 5 + your level. If he's down, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to your level.
This lets them fall, and lie on the battlefield with a decent chance of not dying. When you take a short rest, all your surviving minions return to full hp. If a minion dies, you have to either raise him (but the Raise Dead ritual costs 1/10 its normal amount), or recruit a new one.
As for directing minions, I'd do something like:
If you're following 4th edition standard style, you'd want to list each of these as a separate at-will power that all nobles get, in addition to their at-will attacks. Also, using the druid as a basis, I'd say give him three at-wills, of which one or two must be retinue powers.
That, for me, would fix the flavor issue. There's still the balance issue. You have an at-will power that dazes, another that immobilizes (for how long?). The wording for a few makes them a bit unclear (does unruly shove slide multiple times, letting the minions bounce an enemy around so they all can hit him?).
It's an interesting idea, but obviously making a whole class, and being balanced with it, is tough. I worry that the noble himself does nothing without his minions (except dazes a target every round; woo that's strong), and that the minions do nothing without their commander, but you could fix all of that.
Maybe say that if the noble is down, the minions can each act on their own, but without the bolstering effect of their leader, they take a -5 penalty to all attacks and defenses.
Again, it's odd that you need a class to have buddies tag along with you (in pre-2nd edition, I heard lots of stories of people going around with 20+ cohorts and hirelings on every adventure), but it could be fun to play.
I like the concept of having minions fight for you, but it feels very much like ignoring narrative in favor of game mechanics. Why can only a noble get people to fight for him, but not a warlord, or a charismatic rogue?
Also, the idea of new minions just appearing out of nowhere because you need reinforcements is wacky. I think with a slight adjust to the minion mechanics, though, you can tweak the flavor to be more believable.
In my game, we use a slightly modified minion system, detailed here - 4e Fan Creations and House Rules - EN World D&D / RPG News
I think you could set up your noble so that he has four loyal followers, which count as minions of his level. They would have four states instead of three - fine, bloodied, down, and dead. Fine and bloodied work as normal. When one of your minions goes to 0, he's down (unconscious).
Killing one of your minions is hard. They might go down fast, but they're scrappy. If your minion is fine, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to 5 + twice your level (basically, his hit points plus your level). If he's bloodied, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to 5 + your level. If he's down, he dies if he takes damage in one hit equal to your level.
This lets them fall, and lie on the battlefield with a decent chance of not dying. When you take a short rest, all your surviving minions return to full hp. If a minion dies, you have to either raise him (but the Raise Dead ritual costs 1/10 its normal amount), or recruit a new one.
As for directing minions, I'd do something like:
- Opportunity action to have a single minion make an opportunity attack.
- Minor action to have all of your minions perform a move action.
- Minor action to have a single minion make a basic attack.
- Standard action to use an at-will power that has them all attack.
- Standard to bolster your minions. You spend a healing surge, but don't heal. Instead, bloodied minions become fine, unconscious ones become bloodied, and all of them can stand up or shift 2 squares. (Sure, this uses up the noble's own healing, but if he's using his retinue right, they'll be blocking enemies from hurting him.
If you're following 4th edition standard style, you'd want to list each of these as a separate at-will power that all nobles get, in addition to their at-will attacks. Also, using the druid as a basis, I'd say give him three at-wills, of which one or two must be retinue powers.
That, for me, would fix the flavor issue. There's still the balance issue. You have an at-will power that dazes, another that immobilizes (for how long?). The wording for a few makes them a bit unclear (does unruly shove slide multiple times, letting the minions bounce an enemy around so they all can hit him?).
It's an interesting idea, but obviously making a whole class, and being balanced with it, is tough. I worry that the noble himself does nothing without his minions (except dazes a target every round; woo that's strong), and that the minions do nothing without their commander, but you could fix all of that.
Maybe say that if the noble is down, the minions can each act on their own, but without the bolstering effect of their leader, they take a -5 penalty to all attacks and defenses.
Again, it's odd that you need a class to have buddies tag along with you (in pre-2nd edition, I heard lots of stories of people going around with 20+ cohorts and hirelings on every adventure), but it could be fun to play.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Interesting ideas RW, I want more interesting general minion rules (even with bloodiable) I was calling the extra state... wounded and allowing healing surges.
Normal hirelings could flee if confronted by the bad guys when bloodied making them far less useful... your loyalists do not and continue the fight inspired by your presence....
I would want a build of a Warlord.. to use minions but I can see why the controller role might need the new class in 4e... multi-role classes arent very workable at times. Warlords dont put up with pansies so maybe they just need to interact with heros.
Normal hirelings could flee if confronted by the bad guys when bloodied making them far less useful... your loyalists do not and continue the fight inspired by your presence....
I would want a build of a Warlord.. to use minions but I can see why the controller role might need the new class in 4e... multi-role classes arent very workable at times. Warlords dont put up with pansies so maybe they just need to interact with heros.
Hm, some issues and some thoughts:
- The noble needs at least some actions he can take uner his own power, or a well-placed enemy AOE will cripple him, plus he can't actually enter the fray at all, which is odd for a martial class. Hanging back and blasting is more of an arcane idiom.
- Expressing the retinue as minions rather than, say, summons, creates some fictional weirdness (Sure boss, we'll follow you into battle even though earlier today, we saw Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Sneezy, Dopey, Bashful, and Doc get taken down by one hit from a fire beetle...) and burns a lot of powers on minion restoration.
- The "Cha mod +1" is a very strange number of power activations!
- The Retinue keyword is undefined.
- Maybe define Retinue as follows:
"Powers with the Retinue keyword require that at least one retainer be adjacent to the target, and that retainer must not be immobilized or otherwise unable to take actions (too lazy to look up all the statuses right now). Powers with "Retinue N" require N adjacent retainers to use."
That'll condense the text of a good number of class powers.
- If Call Reinforcements is an attack power, then the retainer placed should perform an attack as part of the power. This is true of all the other "attack" powers as well.
- Powers that affect "all your retainers" should allow you to participate as well.
- The noble needs at least some actions he can take uner his own power, or a well-placed enemy AOE will cripple him, plus he can't actually enter the fray at all, which is odd for a martial class. Hanging back and blasting is more of an arcane idiom.
- Expressing the retinue as minions rather than, say, summons, creates some fictional weirdness (Sure boss, we'll follow you into battle even though earlier today, we saw Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Sneezy, Dopey, Bashful, and Doc get taken down by one hit from a fire beetle...) and burns a lot of powers on minion restoration.
- The "Cha mod +1" is a very strange number of power activations!
- The Retinue keyword is undefined.
- Maybe define Retinue as follows:
"Powers with the Retinue keyword require that at least one retainer be adjacent to the target, and that retainer must not be immobilized or otherwise unable to take actions (too lazy to look up all the statuses right now). Powers with "Retinue N" require N adjacent retainers to use."
That'll condense the text of a good number of class powers.
- If Call Reinforcements is an attack power, then the retainer placed should perform an attack as part of the power. This is true of all the other "attack" powers as well.
- Powers that affect "all your retainers" should allow you to participate as well.
First thoughts when I opened this thread "Oh great, another crackpot with a wacko idea!".
Thoughts after reading doco...Great! I actually smiled reading this. I though it was genuinly clever. It took a vastly needed gap (the martial controller) and filled the hole with and idea that is genuinly new and interesting. A minion based class! Brilliant!
That said, my temptation when building upon the idea would see the integration of the noble into the combat a bit more. This is a martial class and I would see him getting involved a bit more. Things like....
"Utility power. Immediate interupt, when noble would otherwise get hit. Minion takes the damage"
"Encounter Power. When noble attacks inspires followers to make an immediate interupt attack"
...generally stuff that encourages the player to get in there and give it a go, otherwise it might not be an interesting enough class to keep people engaged
Thoughts after reading doco...Great! I actually smiled reading this. I though it was genuinly clever. It took a vastly needed gap (the martial controller) and filled the hole with and idea that is genuinly new and interesting. A minion based class! Brilliant!
That said, my temptation when building upon the idea would see the integration of the noble into the combat a bit more. This is a martial class and I would see him getting involved a bit more. Things like....
"Utility power. Immediate interupt, when noble would otherwise get hit. Minion takes the damage"
"Encounter Power. When noble attacks inspires followers to make an immediate interupt attack"
...generally stuff that encourages the player to get in there and give it a go, otherwise it might not be an interesting enough class to keep people engaged
One other thing. This is a noble,so fluff wise I would follow the line that they had access to money and military training when growing up and I would further extend this to armor use.
My take on this would be that they can wear all armor up to plate and including heavy shields (possibly even a free superior weapon option. Fits the fluff, gives us a second plate wearer and allows for the class to get into the fray without too much risk
My take on this would be that they can wear all armor up to plate and including heavy shields (possibly even a free superior weapon option. Fits the fluff, gives us a second plate wearer and allows for the class to get into the fray without too much risk
Thanks for the feedback guys !
Ok, let's see what I can do to make this more interesting:
a) Clarify the rules for retinues and refine the keyword with powers.
b) Create some powers which let the noble participate in combat. I think it's a good idea to slant the noble with a tint of swashbuckler and give him some burst 1 attacks and introduce some crazy stunt powers.
c) Nobles are masters of intrigue. We should be able to give them some non-cambat class powers to reflect that.
Generally folks are positive about the minions and having a class which can replenish them continuously. Some minor refinements here.
Some further ideas I want you guys to think about and critique.
a) I'm seeing if I can get the old school Chainmail 3rd edition rules to be integrate into the Noble class engine to do something for the grognards here, I wonder what you think ?
b) High level nobles should be masters of the domination power. I want to see if a Song of Ice and Fire can provide inspiration there.
c) The ultimate noble is Petyr Baelish of Game of Thrones.
Regards
Ok, let's see what I can do to make this more interesting:
a) Clarify the rules for retinues and refine the keyword with powers.
b) Create some powers which let the noble participate in combat. I think it's a good idea to slant the noble with a tint of swashbuckler and give him some burst 1 attacks and introduce some crazy stunt powers.
c) Nobles are masters of intrigue. We should be able to give them some non-cambat class powers to reflect that.
Generally folks are positive about the minions and having a class which can replenish them continuously. Some minor refinements here.
Some further ideas I want you guys to think about and critique.
a) I'm seeing if I can get the old school Chainmail 3rd edition rules to be integrate into the Noble class engine to do something for the grognards here, I wonder what you think ?
b) High level nobles should be masters of the domination power. I want to see if a Song of Ice and Fire can provide inspiration there.
c) The ultimate noble is Petyr Baelish of Game of Thrones.
Regards
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