Non-Clerics as a part of Church Hierarchy?

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

I personally don`t see why characters with most levels not in Cleric Class or even no Cleric levels at all cannot be high-ranking members of particular Church. Archpriest of Deity of Thieves might be a Rogue 12/Cleric 5, of LN Deity of Knowldege and magic a Monk 10/Wizard 10 etc. My greatest character, Vilgefortz The Dark, currently a Lich Wizard 7/Archmage 3/ Shadow Adept 13, is a High Priest of Shadowlord, a LE Deity of Darkness, Negative Energy, Undeath, Unsensitivisness and Cold Ambition. Unlike Other High Priests OF Shadow he doesn`t have a Church in particular region to oversee, but is an informal leader of those Arcane Shadow Adepts that serve Shadowlord.

 

[Pollaxe]

Good question...

IMHO I would suggest it depends on the society and the Churches of each world/campaign-setting... if you think about an archetypal high-ranking cleric from this world's past, then their piety often had little to do with their rank.. take very worldly men like Cardinals Wolsey and Richlieu.. at the opposite end of the spectrum quite often the *really* spiritual guys were the hermits living off in the wilds, eating locusts and battling temptation and growing enormous beards and holding little or no interest in the temporal machinations of the Church..

Of course, we don't have magic in this world nor do our priests perform Cure Light Wounds and such.. so, I suppose the question to come back with would be: what would your society expect of its priests? How would a high-ranking churchman who couldn't heal, bless (etc. etc.) compare with the likes of someone who wears a hairshirt, never washes and can raise the dead..? Does your society look for manifestations of the priest's piety in the form of divine power or could it be his role in the community (or for the high ranks, the realm as a whole) which is most important? Of course this is ignoring the middle-ground and considering the two opposing extremes of the situation..

Could be an interesting source of tension in agame world maybe..?

Just my ha'peth..

 

[Aurianna]

Church Hierarchies are, by-and-large, much more POLITICAL in nature than Religious. It would be IDEAL for members of the hierarchy to be Clerics, Divine Disciples, etc. of appropriate level, but in practice, a high-level Expert, with good Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge(Politics), Diplomacy, Sense Motive, etc. would be just as capable of acheiving dominance within a Church.

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

Good question...

IMHO I would suggest it depends on the society and the Churches of each world/campaign-setting... if you think about an archetypal high-ranking cleric from this world's past, then their piety often had little to do with their rank.. take very worldly men like Cardinals Wolsey and Richlieu.. at the opposite end of the spectrum quite often the *really* spiritual guys were the hermits living off in the wilds, eating locusts and battling temptation and growing enormous beards and holding little or no interest in the temporal machinations of the Church..

Of course, we don't have magic in this world nor do our priests perform Cure Light Wounds and such.. so, I suppose the question to come back with would be: what would your society expect of its priests? How would a high-ranking churchman who couldn't heal, bless (etc. etc.) compare with the likes of someone who wears a hairshirt, never washes and can raise the dead..? Does your society look for manifestations of the priest's piety in the form of divine power or could it be his role in the community (or for the high ranks, the realm as a whole) which is most important? Of course this is ignoring the middle-ground and considering the two opposing extremes of the situation..

Could be an interesting source of tension in agame world maybe..?

Just my ha'peth..

Oh yes, it is a source of tension in my case, for some of my fellow High Priests don`t like an Arcane Spell Caster being one of them, especially seeing how quickly I advanced through the ranks. Fortunately they woldn`t dare to object too loudly, for I am much favored by The Lord of Shadows. But it doesn`t make me feel more comfortable, for The Art of subtle intrigues, patience and planning is of a great importance among the followers of The Hearthless.

 

[Xarlen]

I agree. Priest != Cleric. All you have to do to be a priest is to know the scripture, and preach.

Besides, Clerics aren't suited to be every holyman in a church. You telling me every holyman in a church can cast healing spells, remove curses, and the like?

They would be filled with experts, and other classes too.

 

[Wicht]

The Kalamar's players Guide has a very nice section on church heirarchy on Tellene and what one must do to advance up through the ranks. Using their system, it is possible for non-clerics to rise in rank, though not necessarily all the way to the top. If you haven't given it a look, you might consider doing so.

 

[EricNoah]

Some real-world churches are governed by church boards which consist of elected members of the church. That board has a lot of power -- they hire and fire ministers, among other things.

Fantasy church board members could be experienced commoners who have been around a bit, experts who could be offering their services (carpentry, etc.), a few veterans of wars from decades ago and who are both respected and might have conservative views about change, that sort of thing.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Sepulchrave, in his Story Hour, has said that in his world the average aly-priest is an Expert with ranks in Knowledge Religion. The cool thing is that these priests typically take the Contemplative PrC (whose sole req is Knowledge: Religion 13) and become the important Bishops, etc, while the clerics are the adventuring, outside-of-the-mainstream types.

 

[Uller]

I've always looked a the cleric (and druid and paladin) classes not as "rank and file" members of their orders/religions/etc. but are specially "chosen" or gifted individuals who are particularly favored by their deity (or nature spirit in the case of druids). Religions that have heirarchies (certainly not all do) have those built around finding and fostering such individuals, but they aren't necessarily made up completely of clerics. Most would be aristocrats and/or experts dedicated to spreading the faith, leading the flock and maintaining the sacred texts and rituals.

I do have most (large) temples have a few clerics about, but certainly not everyone in the temple is some sort of spell caster. That would be a bit silly, IMO.

 

[Tonguez]

I once ran a campaign in which ALL the PCs were agents of the Church with the potential to move up its ranks
The point has also been raised that the CLERIC class doesn't fit the classic Priest idea to well and IMHO is in fact more of a Temple-Knight (Templar) than a Priest in the hierarchy


Fighters = Crusaders (also Barbarian (Rage = Holy Fury), Ranger (Crusader Scout) etc)
Clerics = Temple Guardians (all Ordained Deacons)
Paladin = Paladin (All High Ranking Crusaders)
Rogue = Inquisitor Investigator (Deacons sent out to gather the information recquired for trials)
Bard = Temple Choirsinger (Lay member or Deacon)
Wizard/Sorcerer = Temple Mage/Alchemist (see Roger Bacon from history)

Most Parish Preists are Experts or Adepts, a few maybe Aristocrats as are Bishops etc

Church Hierarchy
Hierophant (The Supreme Patriarch)
College of Cardinals (Headed by the Cardinal Dean)
Arch-Bishop - with authority over a group of Bishops (a Province)
Bishops - with authority over a 'City and its district'
Priest - agent of a Parish (individual Church/Temple)
Deacons - Servants of the Church (ie scribes, bookkeepers)

Roles within the Church

Prophet - the Voice of god
Apostle - the missionary building new churches and congreagations
Evangelist - Encourages beleivers to faith
Pastor - Cares for the congregation