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Non-cliche slavery in fantasy campaign settings?

steelsteve

First Post
Most fantasy campaign settings, when they bring up the issue of slavery at all (which is typically only as an offhand mention in the descriptions of evil races like drow and goblins), use the field slave/serfdom model of slavery where the slaves are are treated horrifically, being regularly worked to death, casually beaten, raped or murdered.

The institution of slavery has existed throughout history all over the world and in many different forms. Most pertinent to this discussion, however, is the institution of slavery in the Roman Empire and Ancient Egypt. In that context, HOUSE slaves (not FIELD slaves, which were treated the same way they were in the American South) actually had rights and were more akin to second-class citizens than what most modern persons would consider slaves. Being a house slave would actually give a person a better standard of living than many peasants and many foreigners in the Empire willingly (and pragmatically) sold themselves into slavery because it would give them an economic advantage until they became free men.

AFAIK fantasy campaign settings only ever use the field slave as a model and completely ignore the far less horrific house slave model, or even give field slaves a more humane treatment like that of house slaves. It would quite refreshing if the otherwise evil proud warrior race considered it morally wrong to mistreat a slave because they aren't worthy opponents and the paladin has an actual moral dilemma about freeing the slaves because many of them don't want to be freed due to their better standard of living as opposed to being free peasants.

What say you?

Here's a cool one that i'd like to explore. Elves always hide because their reproduction rate is slower than anything, what if they produce half-elves for the purpose of a serf caste? All half-elves in a nation are third class citizens while outsiders are considered to be second class with some rights, and any elf are considered to be noblility by default. Surely there's something able to be done with this right?
 

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Scorpio616

First Post
Given how many PCs treat the people they hire like pack mules, disposable shields and monster snackrifices, it probably would be even WORSE if the actually OWNED the poor souls. This alone is a good reason NOT to have slaves readily available.
 

I think a a system of state sponsored indentured servitude could work in a setting without pulling the pin on any paladin who wanders by. All indentured servants would be regulated by the government and in service to the state, that would then rent their labor to private businessmen. Each indentured servant would work at a pay rate determined by their level of job skills until the debt is paid. Indentured servants could be criminals paying for their crimes through labor or regular citizens using their work as collateral for a loan.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
I know that in the early years of Living Greyhawk based on some information in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, the country of Ket was one of the few non-evil countries on Oerth to practice slavery. Slavers are fairly common in Greyhawk but they are evil, mistreat their slaves and are always used as the villains. Ket, on the other hand, is an extremely Lawful Neutral country that practiced Indentured Servitude for financial debts and also reserved Slavery as punishment for horrible crimes. Ket did not believe in the death penalty so murder was punished by a Lifetime of Slavery in the silver mines.

Though the issue of slavery was brought up as a concern by players who felt uncomfortable at the idea of slavery and the fact that this was happening was downplayed and barely mentioned after the first couple of years of the campaign in order to avoid issues.
 

Thank you for your input. I've adjusted the OP to compensate.

Yes, I am looking for a model of society that treats slaves more humanely in order to challenge the philosophical and moral beliefs of the typical adventurer.

Depending on how you're defining slavery, there are models that include slave soldiers in which those soldiers can rise to high positions in the government while remianing slaves. At least one - Mamluk Egypt - existed where if you weren't a slave you could never have the highest ranks. There's others where temporary slavery is a feature, where defeated warriors would become the "slaves" of the victors. This was supposed to encourage their families to come up with a ransom promptly.
 

the Jester

Legend
Sorry- long post here, mostly disputing others. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but many of the arguments in this thread seem overly simplistic or to rely on assumptions that the game just doesn't support. Moreover, it seems like there's at least as much "Why would you do that? Don't do that" as actual addressing of the OP's question about alternatives to the harsh version of slavery that most modern depictions show.

For clarity, I agree that slavery as we usually think of it is absolutely reprehensible, and being enslaved is a terrible thing, no matter the style of slavery. But I don't think it is nearly as unambiguous as some of you claim.

When fantasy settings do bring up slavery, it's unambiguously evil. It also completely ignores the fact that within the setting itself there are far easier methods of getting field work done than enslaving people. Wizards who can mass summon extraplanar creatures and mass produce golems have existed for thousands of years and are a dime a dozen.

I think you're making a lot of setting assumptions here.

Let's talk about one possible origin of slaves: as prisoners of war. Slavery arose, in some ancient cultures, because there was enough food to leave your POWs alive. Otherwise... you kill them.

"Better to die on your feet" stuff aside, which is worse for a guy whose tribe has been crushed- being executed along with his family, or being kept alive and fed in return for hard labor for life? Most important to the equation is the kids; the POW might be willing to do just about anything to keep his family alive.

So, in the right setting, slavery need not be unambiguously evil; in fact, I've used it in exactly that way before. The good-aligned, more merciful people in such a society take slaves to avoid unnecessary slaughter of innocents.

As to high-level wizards being "a dime a dozen", outside of the Forgotten Realms, they sure don't seem to be all that common to me! Greyhawk has maybe a dozen or so at a time, most wrapped up in their own affairs. Eberron npcs are very rare above about 6th or 8th level. In my own campaign, if there's a wizard powerful enough to cast a 9th level spell on the same continent as you, pretty much everyone knows it- such a powerful spellcaster is rare, indeed.

So I have to say, your "dime a dozen" argument really doesn't hold water.

The reason it is an unambigously evil institution because it is ownership of another person and their legal status is no more important than the master's favorite horse (at best). Servus non habet personam (A slave has no persona ... is not a person). We take laws and rights for granted in our modern era but there were ancients who saw the institution as morally wrong as well.

This is a huge assumption that relies on a version of slavery where the slave is no more valuable than the master's favorite horse. Again, there are serious assumptions about the nature of the campaign world tied up in this. What about criminals enslaved for their crimes and forced to work the fields to feed the rest of society? What about a system of slavery where the slaves have rights (including the right to own slaves of their own!) and privileges and are well-treated, but are technically property of a family or estate that has owned theirs for generations in a system that has shown gradual improvement in their treatment until the 'slaves' have almost every right that their 'masters' have?

Let's not oversimplify, especially in a thread whose whole purpose is to explore the possible complexities of the topic for worldbuilding purposes.

20th-level wizards are reality warpers whose power is limited only by what spells they know. There exist a virtually infinite number of spells that can do pretty much anything imaginable. New spells have to come from somewhere. There's probably a spell to instantly create golems, or speed up time so that construction takes only a few seconds, or a spell to turn dirt into gold, etc.

There are, at least to the best of my knowledge, no spells in official sources that do anything you want. Even wish has limits.

I've yet to see a spell for making permanent laborers, short of animate dead (which comes with its own problems). It's fine to assume that such a spell must be out there somewhere in your campaign, but in many settings, magic has proscribed limits. A really common one (for purposes of balance) is "no eliminating massive costs in money and time for magical work". In fact, in the Epic Level Handbook for 3e, adding time and money is a way to make spells less difficult to cast at epic levels.

So while you might be able to research an epic spell to instabuild a six-pack of golem laborers, you're going to need a 40th level wizard to cast it, you're going to have to convince him to create it (at great cost in time, money and xp), then to cast it, then to cast it over and over again until he's replaced... how many laborers, exactly?

While you seem to think in terms of settings being implicitly high-magic, I think a close look will reveal that most published settings are actually fairly low-magic (excepting the FR and admitting Eberron as an odd case of prevalent magic with few high-level npcs to create it). It's not a safe assumption that you can find "Instant Golem" spells in most campaigns, and even if you could, there is a tremendous logistical issue with getting them to the fields, keeping them on task, etc.

If wizards can create new kinds of monsters, then it should be possible to create living, self-replicating factories that churn out golems. Von Neumann machines, grey goo, etc.

Why? Says whom?

There's also Wish, which can duplicate the effects of all lower-level spells. When you get into epic levels then everything pretty much goes out the window.

First a quibble- wish cannot duplicate all lower-level spells, just most of them. You won't be able to ape an 8th level cleric spell (at least in 3e).

But about the epic stuff, sure- you can literally do anything. So just how many epic level wizards are there in an average milieu? How many of them are going to spend years and millions of gps and xps to build better farming tools?

Furthermore, 20th-level wizards have literally superhuman intelligence and probably think much differently than we do. Do you honestly believe that someone as smart or smarter than the smartest people who ever lived on Earth, who can use magic with purely arbitrary limitations, is not going to actually use their vast intelligence to dramatically alter the world around them forever and will just go on pointless adventures where they kill monsters and loot corpses?

That's a pretty specious argument. I don't think anyone's arguing that epic level pcs just go kill things and take their loot.

However, I think that's far more likely than that they spend all their hard-earned resources working to change the economy of one country or another. For one thing, a country is too small of a matter for epic-level pcs to really care about. At least in most cases that I've seen, run or played, epic-level pcs are busy negotiating with gods and arch-devils, constantly moving from one world or plane to another, are fending off attacks from their archfoes, etc.

Frankly, epic-level pcs typically have more important things to do than worry about slavery.

Now, I'll totally grant that I am inserting a lot of setting assumptions into this argument about epic-level pcs, but they're arguments that arise from the rules rather than being arguments that rely on a certain interpretation of setting that seems contraindicated by both existing examples (e.g. the number of epic-level npcs on most published worlds) and the rules themselves (e.g. demographics in the 3e DMG clearly show that there aren't many, if any, epic npcs to be found in the typical world).

Much as with Seed AIs modifying their own code and find ways to circumvent any and all laws imposed upon them by their programmers, that wizard is going to find ways around the laws of magic and will optimize in order to make reality their playground.

Magic is explicitly not science. It may simply not be possible to do this. And even if it is (in a given campaign), realize that your argument here boils down to "Well, even if the rules say you can't, sure you can!"
 

Grue

First Post
This is a huge assumption that relies on a version of slavery where the slave is no more valuable than the master's favorite horse. Again, there are serious assumptions about the nature of the campaign world tied up in this. What about criminals enslaved for their crimes and forced to work the fields to feed the rest of society? What about a system of slavery where the slaves have rights (including the right to own slaves of their own!) and privileges and are well-treated, but are technically property of a family or estate that has owned theirs for generations in a system that has shown gradual improvement in their treatment until the 'slaves' have almost every right that their 'masters' have?

Let's not oversimplify, especially in a thread whose whole purpose is to explore the possible complexities of the topic for worldbuilding purposes.

Key word- Legally. No matter how many rights and privileges a slave is granted they legally do not own their own body no matter how well they are treated or what privileges and traditions their owners, state, or extra-legal religious institutions grant them in any de facto historical case of slavery I can think of. If they do own their body they are not 'slaves' but something else... serfs, conscripts, or some other form of peonage... while those could be considered latter forms of slavery it's pretty clear the OP is looking at classic world chattel slavery. While I'm not a fan of moral relativism, if part of a PCs philosophy is anything along the lines that all sapients are some sort of manifestation of the same universal spirit (such as with the Stoics in the ancient world), then they are by nature equal and slavery is an unambiguously evil institution.

Even if the State has restrictions on what you can do with a slave it's more more of a case of protecting civil harmony and prevention of depriving the state of labor...the slave still does not own their body and is just subject to a higher level 'owner' (the State as ultimate master). It's not about a slave's inalienable right, just a rule governing property.

On a world building side of things, Good would oppose the ill-treatment of slaves if it could not be undermined or opposed openly.

Unambiguously evil or not, it doesn't really matter for world building purposes but as far as the baseline assumptions of D&D alignment system a slave owning society is not Good. Granted, it might be interesting to see how PCs would react if only certain races like kobolds could be legally taken and kept as slaves.
 
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Argyle King

Legend
I'm not sure if this offers anything useful to the conversation at the campaign setting level, but I have had societies in my games (and vastly prefer it to me this way) where morality wasn't strictly black/white.


As it pertains to slavery, there was one case in which a player decided to kill an aristocrat who owned slaves. Rather than the gratitude the player assumed he would get, he was met with some amount of resentment. One slave in particular was upset because life under the rich aristocrat was fairly good; now, without the resources of that aristocrat, he (the slave) was on his own. Certainly, some of the (now dead) aristocrat's slaves did flee and make a break for freedom, but there wasn't what I'd say was a unified opinion and set of actions.

Later, in the same campaign, the player who murderer the aristocrat was hunted by the authorities; the slave who was upset about the death of the master turned him in.
 

So, in the right setting, slavery need not be unambiguously evil; in fact, I've used it in exactly that way before. The good-aligned, more merciful people in such a society take slaves to avoid unnecessary slaughter of innocents.

This is a classic case of the evil conquerer thinking that he is the good guy. :erm:

If they were a good aligned and merciful people then they wouldn't be making war on their neighbors and putting them in a position where its either slavery or death. Conquering another group of people and killing or enslaving them is an evil act. One can rationalize and say that sparing lives is indeed more merciful but not without consideration of the agression that got things to that point in the first place.

So saying, hey we are going to invade, and we will take your lands by force. You can die or become our slaves what say you? That isn't really being merciful.
 

the Jester

Legend
This is a classic case of the evil conquerer thinking that he is the good guy. :erm:

If they were a good aligned and merciful people then they wouldn't be making war on their neighbors and putting them in a position where its either slavery or death. Conquering another group of people and killing or enslaving them is an evil act. One can rationalize and say that sparing lives is indeed more merciful but not without consideration of the agression that got things to that point in the first place.

So saying, hey we are going to invade, and we will take your lands by force. You can die or become our slaves what say you? That isn't really being merciful.

Here's a scenario for you:

One tribe or group of people is forced to leave their ancestral lands due to a shift in the local climate; water and food are simply no longer available in sufficient amounts to support their population.

This tribe (let's call 'em tribe A) moves into the nearest lands where there is food and water, but there are already people living there, so- much as you describe- they say, "Hey, we're moving in and taking over!"

But the people living there already- tribe B, we'll call 'em- say, "We're defending ourselves!"

In the ensuing conflict, tribe B wins. And has prisoners of war. And has to decide what to do with them- kill them, let them have what they wanted in the first place or find some compromise where the POWs live but don't just get to walk away after killing a bunch of the tribe. Maybe make them make up for what they've done somehow- make restitution.

Sounds a lot like justice... and one viable option for a tribal society with no tradition of jail or imprisonment in this situation is to enslave tribe A.
 

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