Pathfinder 1E Non-D&D /Pathfinder RPGs

[Bedrockgames]

On another thread, the subject of games beyond D&D and Pathfinder came up. A lot of folks are hesitant to make the switch, often because it is hard to convince players to try a new game, but also because they don't know other games are good nd worth trying.

I figure we can put together a list of other games, but do so in a way that gives an honest preview, explaining its strengths and weaknesses (as well as accurately characterizing it---if it relies heavily on mniatures for example or avoids them entirely, say so, as that is important to some people).

My first suggestion is Dr. Who by Cubicle 7. It is rules light, doesn't really use miniatures and focused on emulating the new Doctor Who series. A very simple system (certainly not suited to people who like crunch) and has a clever initiative system that allowstalkers and movers to go first (which allows the non-violent premise of the show to work at the table).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

HERO

Strengths: flexibile enough to model any PC concept. Once your PC is on paper, you almost never need to reference the books to play- its all on your sheet. Because of its "toolbox" nature, it allows for genre-mashing at the campaign and even PC level.

Weaknesses: the math of PC creation, while all fairly simple, can be time-consuming and thus, intimidating or off-putting. HERO's system also means that there are typically multiple ways to achieve the same result, so the sheer number of options may also be daunting, and can slow down PC creation. See the term "Analysis Paralysis." The powers, etc. are generically named, so there is no "poetry" to inspire the mind like you'd find in other games.


For me, HERO's strengths far outweigh the weaknesses, especially with a little system mastery. Once you've played it a few times, PC creation flows more quickly and intuitively. I've been playing the game since its first inception, and I can pretty much design a PC in my head, choosing powers (with their advantages and disadvantages), talents, and weaknesses, only needing the book to do the actual math. (And I can do some of that in my head as well.)

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Shadowrun

Listen up, Chummer. This is Seattle, and you've got to keep your wits if you're going to be a shadowrunner. That native American sitting in the corner, sipping his soycaf? He's a shaman. He's probably got some bird spirit listining to us talk. Don't worry, he doesn't work for a megacorp, but he probably has a couple of troll buddies ready to drag you into an alley and plug you. They could probably get a few thousand nuyen for that cyberarm of yours.

If you think you can handle yourself, then perhaps I've got a job for you. And as a bonus, I'll give you a piece of advice an old friend once gave me. Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.

Shadowrun is a cyberpunk fantasy game taking place in the last half of the twenty-first century. Characters are shadowrunners: professional criminals who live outside the system. They can be cold-blooded mercenaries or neo-anarchist revolutionaries bent on smashing the system.

The rules are skill based, simulationist, and very crunchy. Miniatures are not necessary and never referenced by the rules. Character creation is detailed and can be slow, and the game can be very lethal. Characters are often referred to as eggshells with hammers, which lends to the paranoid, gritty tone of the setting. It rewards careful, smart play.

Task resolution involves a dice pool system, so you'll need a lot of six sided dice.

 

[amerigoV]

Savage Worlds. All the cool kids are playing it. If you are not cool, then you just keep playing whatever lame game you are currently are playing. If you think you are cool and are not playing Savage Worlds, well, then you are not as cool as you thought you were.



(PS: I don't do objective, especially for such a subjective topic)

 

[Stormonu]

I'll take a deeper stab at Savage Worlds.

It's a game that lives up to it's motto of Fast, Furious and Fun. It was born as a hybrid of the wargame Rail Wars and RPG Deadlands and it's amazingly versatile for as lite a system as it is. Character generation takes less than thirty minutes and with Advantages and Flaws, you can ensure that pratically no two characters will look or act quite the same. Combat is deceptively tactical, yet simple to resolve. It's handled every genre I seen tossed at it so far, and the core rulebook is only $10. When's the last time you've seen a COMPLETE RPG that cheap?

Because PCs are only throwing two dice at most and mook NPCs are rolling one for any given action, you can do mass combats in-game without having to step back or cough up rules to cover it. Magic/Super-powers/Weird Science/Psionics are dirt-simple to implement. You choose your base mechanical effects (say Blast) and then color it however you want - perhaps you hurl a ball of cthonian goo at your enemies that explodes in slime-coated tentacles to tear your opponents apart or it's a fireball; you choose. The base game covers about 90% of D&D's spell list and there is a fantasy supplement that you can get to take your magic further if that's not enough for you.

If there's a drawback to Savage Worlds, it's the "death spiral" mechanic. As you take damage, actions become harder to perform (but you've got to run out of plot protection/bennies before it's actually a problem). Some people don't like that - personally, I do like it; I find it better than D&D's "fine-until-you-drop-dead" way of handling hit points.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The Fantasy Trip

Strength: Possibly the simplest FRPG ever. Developed as the roleplaying extension of the fantasy wargames Melee and Wizard, it has only a few stats, and PCgen can take as little as 5 minutes. Perfect for casual or beer & pretzel RPG games. Note: precursor to GURPS.

Weakness: its limited mechanics meant limited flexibility in PC design. You're just not going to find mechanical support for barbarians, ninjas, druids, paladins, etc. And its the same kind of streamlining on the critter side, too- for instance, dragons differ only in size & power, not abilities. Also, LOOOONG out of print.

HOWEVER...

Dark City games has released a system that is essentially a clone, and expanded upon it.

http://www.darkcitygames.com/index.php

 

[Derren]

The Dark Eye

A fantasy RPG a bit similar to D&D with the classic races and Tolkien tropes but with a much lower "Wahoo" level. The setting Aventurien is a lot closer to the dark ages in Europe than a kitchen sink.
It offers free character advancement (There are archetypes which you select at the beginning, but they only decide how many points it costs you to advance certain skills, not what you can or can't do, magic being the exception). It is a great RPG when you want a lower power level than D&D and a immersive fantasy world.
Downside is that you need a lot of dice (especially mages) and that fights can take a bit (You can parry to negate a hit in combat. With two skilled combatants duelling each other it takes ages as they parry everything.) Also a bit more rolling is required (A skill check takes 3 dice).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Eye

 

[Greg K]

I'll take a deeper stab at Savage Worlds. (stuff snipped)

To add to Stormonu
Strengths:
1. The Third party support. Some of the best and award winning companies that produced for d20 and d20 Modern are producing top notch content for SW as are other great companies: Adamant (Mars, Thrilling Tales), Battlefield Press (Gaslight, Sherwood), Daring Entertainment (War of the Dead), Dog House Rules (Western material), GRAmel(Beasts and Barbarians), Gun Metal Games (Interface Zero, Totems of the Dead), Reality Blurs (Agents of Oblivion, Realms of Cthulhu, Iron Dynasty), RPGObjects (Darwin's World), Triple Ace Games (All For One, Hellfrost, Sundered Skies).

2. Dials: The latest edition provides dials for adjusting lethality.

Weakness: Since, I consider the "death spiral" to be a feature and not a drawback, I'll throw in something else- Illusion powers.
The main Explorer Edition book and Fantasy Companion both fail to explain how Illusions are handled in SW. The explanation was provided here on rpg.net as being trappings of other powers-primarily, Obscure (to hear or see what is not there) or Puppet (if getting the target to react). Fom my understanding, it was not included in the latest version (Deluxe) either.

 

[Greg K]

For the moment, I am choosing to ignore my main go to games: Mutants and Masterminds (2e), Savage Worlds, Icons, Cortex (classic), Cinematic Unisystem, True20, and (all of which I, highly, recommend). Instead, I am focus on smaller games that tend to get less publicity.
Since Bedrock Games started the thread, I will begin by listing his products.

Crime Network:Cosa Notra
Horror Show
Terror Network

I have not had a chance to play these games which are among a handful of games in my "To Try" folder (most games do not make it this far). Therefore, the following is based upon a reading of each game rather than play experience.
(Note: I received my pdf copies from Bedrock Games. It was, essentially, a thank you for repeatedly directing people to reviews of his products when they inquired about rpgs on one of the genres despite being being laid off and unable to afford the products themselves).

Strengths:
1. They seem well researched (admittedly, I am not all that familiar with the mafia films/dramas or anti-terrorism. Horror on the other, hand, I am well versed and glad to see reference to movies that the majority of people whom I have met have no familiarity). I think that, even if people were not to find mechanics to their taste, the information and advice in the games will be useful for people (Horror Show, especially, impressed me). I also like that Terror Network provides a high octane variant for those not wanting something so deadly.

2. Character generation: It reminds me somewhat of White Wolf's Storyteller- you get primary and secondary skilll categories (primary categories are, partially, assigned by roles and the remainder are chosen). The character receives a number of points to assign dots to skills with primary categories getting more points for spending(Unlike White Wolf, there are no standard rpg attributes).

3. I also like that, despite being a dice pool, only the best die is taken and compared to a TN- no counting successes or totaling of dice. This should keep things moving fast.

4. Crammed with material. The games are less than 120 pages and half of it is genre related information, GM advice, scenario suggestions, a scenario and NPCs.

5. Horror Show is, by default, based on one-shots to emulate a single horror movie. However, one can do a movie franchise with reoccurring characters (for those that survive to the sequels).

Weakness: Of the following, only one is an issue at all to me (and not a deal breaker since I have no other issues). However, I am listing what I think might be potential issues for people depending upon their tastes in rpgs.

1. Single system: All of these games use the same basic system rather than entirely different systems There are, a few changes to capture the genre (e.g, names or characters in Terror Network receiving more skills to represent intensive training). This is not an issue for me. However, the single system for different genres is a complaint that I have seen leveled by some people about games like GURPS, Savage Worlds and Cortex (classic)).

2. No Ability Scores: Some people might not like that there are no standard rpg ability scores (e.g, strength, dex, con, etc.) for every character and, instead they are handled by skills (e.g, might). I thought this would be an issue, but was not since most are covered by skills.

3. Lethality: The default for all three might be too lethal for some people. However, it is within the genre of each game. Crime Network you are afraid of being "whacked" by someone else. Horror Show is about emulating horror movies and people die in them. Terror Network assumes death is on the line (but there is the high octane variant).

4. Terror Network might have have a list of skill specializations (called Expertise) that are too long for some people. This is not an issue for me since characters are not required to take Expertise and, if one is interested in Expertise, they will only be looking at Expertise areas for skills that they have.

5. My only real complaint and it might be a misreading- Expertise is limited to the purchase of one extra die. To be a master in a martial art that focuses entirely on grappling (or includes very limited striking), does not teach weapons, or focuses entirely on a melee weapon, I have to be good in all areas of hand to hand combat (Hand-to-Hand rank 3) and then take an Expertise.

(Edit: I moved the listed free games from other companies to another post)

 

[Daniel Grota]

Savage Worlds would be a good choice. It's fast to get the basics down and can support many genres which makes it great for a one-shot just to try it out. If you want, you can download the test drive rules from the main site and one of the one sheet adventures to get the ball rolling and ease new players in (I would link them, but I'm too much of a noob to be allowed to do so ).