Non-essential Assassin; Opinions?

[Neonchameleon]

The Assassin is a deeply flawed class and in a way no amount of feat/power support can overcome. And the problem all boils down to one little class feature: the ability to turn insubstantial and sustain as a minor action. This does two things.

First it utterly screws their action economy; every turn the assassin wants to maintain the insubstantiality, shroud something, and attack something. There's no room in there for a normal move action unless you give up something (or charge). Which also makes you incredibly vulnerable to being dazed, dominated, or stunned.

Second it means that you can take more damage even than a pimped out Warden. The incoming damage is all getting halved - meaning you start effectively with more than 40hp and gain eight every level. Also any healing has a disproportionate effect as the non-surge dependent value is effectively counted twice when set against incoming damage.

Optimal group play therefore puts you right on the front lines, going toe to toe with the biggest and nastiest close combat monster you can while wielding a fullblade and standing still. Meanwhile you are focussing on an enemy monster in the rear lines, building up your shrouds on him so you can take him out when the front line falls. And trying to make yourself a big enough target to convince the monsters to hit you not the defenders.

That's really what I signed up for when I decided to play an assassin...

 

[Wednesday Boy]

First it utterly screws their action economy; every turn the assassin wants to maintain the insubstantiality, shroud something, and attack something. There's no room in there for a normal move action unless you give up something (or charge). Which also makes you incredibly vulnerable to being dazed, dominated, or stunned.

I don't know the Assassin well but the Compendium says Assassin's Shroud is a free action, so you should be able to shroud something (free action), sustain Shade Form (minor action), attack, and move on your turn.

 

[godfear]

From the Shade Form Effect line:

"You assume a shadowy form that lasts until you make an attack roll or until the end of your next turn."

I was under the impression that attacking ended Shade Form regardless of spending the minor action to sustain. Is that not the case?

 

[jbear]

Death Wastes Nothing is a feat that should be a class feature IMO.

I have houseruled that my player's assassin can transfer her shrouds to a new target when her old target is killed by an ally. That take quite a bit of the suckiness out of their striker feature.

Assassin's have got some really fun powers: Twighlight Assassin, Shadow Jack, Assassin's Noose are a few that spring to mind.

So they can dome some cool things but personally I'd rather play the Essentials Assassin which looks like LOADS of fun!

As for crit fishing ... someone will have to explain that one to me. I can't think of any multi-target attack powers at all off the top of my head.

 

[DonAdam]

Mechanics aside, my main problem with the standard assassin is that the flavor is so specific. It feels like a paragon path stretched out over 30 levels. The new assassin feels more like what I think of when I hear the name of the class.

 

[Larrin]

I was under the impression that attacking ended Shade Form regardless of spending the minor action to sustain. Is that not the case?

No thats definitely the case.

Shroud form is NOT something you should be trying to maintain long term in an encounter, its a temporary shield that lasts until you hit something.

My take on the assassin I've been playing from level 11-15. I love it. It is the class for me. I dance about combat, making tactical snipes until I build up enough shrouds and then I let loose with a blast of damage. I don't suffer from being out damaged by the defenders or leader in my party, but I could if I hadn't taken Nightshade and a few other feats (mildly disappointing). When I take a big hit, I can go into shroud form and take only half damage (feat), I only stay in shade form until my turn, because its always better to attack. If I need extra protection I have many ways of turning flat out invisible, several of long range teleports, and easily stealth after either, plus after cashing in four shrouds I have 20 temp hp, often this sees me through the battle. My character has two goals reflected in powers and feats,1) place Shrouds make sure I hit when using them 2)become difficult to hit. This works for me, and I have not felt useless at all, often really shining.

Example: When fighting after doing 160+ damage in my first round of attacks (4 shrouds from last round->marked for death+4d6+12->place 3 shrouds (killers insight+marked for death)->actionpoint:some attack +3d6+9->teleport 10 (action point power) ) I went invisible and stealthed for three rounds, avoiding retaliation, placing more shrouds, doing more large amounts of damage then rehiding, and getting my self into optimal positioning. When I did appear, the dragon (and DM) really wanted to hit me, so it was willing to chance putting itself in suboptimal positioning to attack me. When it hit, I used shade form interrupt to halve the damage, and it quickly found itself pinned to the ground between a fighter and a warden having been lured in by the tasty assassin bait. One dead dragon later, I'd done hundreds of damage to a dragon I had engaged pretty much the entire encounter, and after temps and insubstantial, I'd only taken 3 damage. This is how my assassin plays in general, and its how I love playing.

 

[godfear]

Okay, good.

My experience playing Assassin has been limited to Paragon Tier, as well. I went Revenant (Con Build) and Fullblade (Jagged, because I thought it was funny). Everyone in the group complained that it was broken, but I think that has more to do with the weapon and the fact that d12s apparently love me. I didn't find it to be under or over powered, and every three rounds or so I would lay waste to something. Which was fun.

 

[Neonchameleon]

OK. I'm an idiot and misremembered. My own damn fault.

 

[karolusb]

One of the joys of 4E is that even things that are kinda bad, are ussually ok.

Gm'ed a high paragon game with a monk and assassin as the two strikers. Had it been assassin ranger I suspect there would have been more grumbling, but as it was they both outdamaged the non-strikers, and everyone was happy. Assassin was a halfling, so no fullblades, probably didn't help.

The teleport is very restrictive, especially with paragon sizing (I never enforced the teleport restrictions).

The damage scales poorly. Rogues throwing out 3d8 with incredible accuracy (and lots of ways to get CA nowadays). Ranger 2d8 on either of two attack rolls. Assassin 1d6+3. They have a little tactical flexibility, use it now save it for later, target anyone in a large area, wait for the miss effect, but I don't think it offsets the increased reliability or raw damage the others get.

Daily and Encounter powers are underwhelming for paragon. Bad damage expressions, mediocre secondary effects. They have far less control than a rogue, and probably less than a ranger.

I am not sure what their secondary role should be, they don't benefit thier allies, don't do area damage, don't inflict a relevant number of conditions, and they are ultra soft.

Invisibility isn't that useful in most real game situations (you were already flanking with the defender right?). They aren't as good at hiding as the sneaky rogue, and get less benefit from it.

All of that said, lots of unoptimized strikers will be outdamaged by a twinked fighter. I would be hard pressed to imagine a leader outdamaging an assassin (unless you count granting the rogue attacks as leader damage ;-). If you are playing in a casual game, and like stealth and mobility you will probably have fun, but then you would probably like playing a rogue also.

 

[mneme]

To be fair, that's 1d12+1d6+3 (13) vs 1d4+3d8 (16). All of three points of difference, if you assume that the rogue's accuracy is a wash vs the assassin's increased striker damage accuracy (though with a leader the ability to repeat sneak attack damage now is a deal).

Re crit fishing, look at Flury of Talons, Shadow Darts, and Shadow Fire. Can only crit once (presumably), but 3 chances to crit.