Non-Linear Wound System

[Michael Silverbane]

You can do these sorts of wounds in True20. I think there is an optional instant death rule where if you fail your death save by 20 or 25, you die.

So depending on the damage DC of the attack, and your Toughness save bonus, once you take a certain number of hits, any hit beyond that could either be something you shrug off, or could be your last depending on your Toughness roll.

This is (probably) similar to the damage mechanic in Mutants and Masterminds, where each damaging attack has a rank, usually near a predetermined 'power level'.

Whenever you are successfully attacked, you make a 'toughness save', which is capped at the predetermined 'power level'.

If you succeed on the save, you are unhurt.

If you fail the save, but by less than 5, you are injured. This applies a -1 penalty to future toughness saves.

If you fail the save by at least 5 but less than 10, you are injured and stunned. Stunned means you have to stand around for 1 round taking further butt-kickings.

If you fail by at least 10, but less than 15, you are injured, stunned, and disabled. Disabled means that if you do anything strenuous before you receive some sort of aid, you begin dying.

If you fail by at least 15, but less than 20, you are knocked unconscious and begin Dying.

If you fail by at least 20, you die.

The saves are weighted so that you are likely to fail them slightly, but it is possible to fail them badly. So, any given attack can either leave you completely unharmed (generally on a die roll result of 15+ on the toughness save) all the way to knocking you out of the action in one go (on a die roll result of 1-5 on the toughness save).

 

[Dragonblade]

This is (probably) similar to the damage mechanic in Mutants and Masterminds, where each damaging attack has a rank, usually near a predetermined 'power level'.

Whenever you are successfully attacked, you make a 'toughness save', which is capped at the predetermined 'power level'.

If you succeed on the save, you are unhurt.

If you fail the save, but by less than 5, you are injured. This applies a -1 penalty to future toughness saves.

If you fail the save by at least 5 but less than 10, you are injured and stunned. Stunned means you have to stand around for 1 round taking further butt-kickings.

If you fail by at least 10, but less than 15, you are injured, stunned, and disabled. Disabled means that if you do anything strenuous before you receive some sort of aid, you begin dying.

If you fail by at least 15, but less than 20, you are knocked unconscious and begin Dying.

If you fail by at least 20, you die.

The saves are weighted so that you are likely to fail them slightly, but it is possible to fail them badly. So, any given attack can either leave you completely unharmed (generally on a die roll result of 15+ on the toughness save) all the way to knocking you out of the action in one go (on a die roll result of 1-5 on the toughness save).

Right. M&M 2e is basically a point buy version of True20 which is class and level based. I really wish that GR would release a True20 2nd Edition that incorporates the changes made in M&M 3e...

 

[Mishihari Lord]

Fate is the closest I've come across but I still think it's linear in that there is still a predetermined number of wounds before death. I should have described non-linear better I think.

What I'm looking for is a non-determined progress toward death. A player doesn't know before hand whether any particular hit will be the final blow. While in most systems damage is random, it is still usually a known how many hits or how much damage will dispatch the character.

Fate seems to be the closest I've seen but not quite there.

I think non-deterministic might have fit better than nonlinear, though that's not exactly right either.

I have a system I've been playing with for my homebrew system that might fit. In simplified terms you compare attacker's fight skill plus roll to the defender's fight skill. The difference (margin of success) between the two determines what happens. If the margin > x, then the defender suffers a -1 penalty to fight skill until healed. If margin > y then the defender has suffered a significant wound, and receives greater penalties based on wound location. If margin > z then the defender is incapacitated or dead. With exploding dice, there's a very small chance a defender could die right off, but it's unlikely. As a character gets more beat up, the odds get worse and it's time to put serious thought into running away.

Edit: after reading the rest of the thread, this is similar but not identical to Mutants and Mastermind's system.

 

[tomBitonti]

Not sure I'm understanding the question now.

Linearity generally means that results are additive. Working within a framework of hit points, taking five HP of damage, then taking another five HP of damage, the total loss is the sum (10 HP). (Having addition gives you multiplication, since a * x is x + x ... x, repeating 'x' 'a' times.)

Still working withing a hit point framework, taking away linearity would mean that subsequent damage would have an effect unequal to initial damage. Having the effect increase as additional damage is taken seems most natural, which would have the second 5 HP of generated damage (my damage roll) having some additional loss.

Some systems provide this as a net effect because of additional consequences of damage, for example, if damage increases the chance to hit, say, by reducing dexterity or dodge, or perhaps by increasing damage by ablating armor.

Not sure if we would want to use "non-deterministic" in this context, but I'm thinking the concept is not really what you you want. Would that mean random (which is usually the case, with lots of possible distributions, more or less different than simple uniform distributions), or as used by a computer scientist (as applied to a non-deterministic finite state automata)?

Thx!

TomB

 

[Technomancer]

Not a published game but a homebrew system of mine, when you get hit you take 1 or more wounds (depending on how well you attack). Any time your wound total increases, you roll 1D6. If the number rolled is equal to or less than the number of wounds you have taken, you are dead. You have a slim chance of one-hit kills, and obviously can take no more than six wounds (of course you could adjust the type of die to allow for the possibility of more or less wounds).

 

[sheadunne]

Not sure I'm understanding the question now.

Linearity generally means that results are additive. Working within a framework of hit points, taking five HP of damage, then taking another five HP of damage, the total loss is the sum (10 HP). (Having addition gives you multiplication, since a * x is x + x ... x, repeating 'x' 'a' times.)

Still working withing a hit point framework, taking away linearity would mean that subsequent damage would have an effect unequal to initial damage. Having the effect increase as additional damage is taken seems most natural, which would have the second 5 HP of generated damage (my damage roll) having some additional loss.

Some systems provide this as a net effect because of additional consequences of damage, for example, if damage increases the chance to hit, say, by reducing dexterity or dodge, or perhaps by increasing damage by ablating armor.

Not sure if we would want to use "non-deterministic" in this context, but I'm thinking the concept is not really what you you want. Would that mean random (which is usually the case, with lots of possible distributions, more or less different than simple uniform distributions), or as used by a computer scientist (as applied to a non-deterministic finite state automata)?

Thx!

TomB

I am certainly not a math person (linear may indeed be the wrong word) and am far removed from it in my everyday life. That said, what I'm looking for, using your example, is that the second 5 points are not cumulative with the first 5 points. Each hit is it's own separate injury and does not stack with the initial or subsequent injury's.(One does not have a total HP before death. In fact, no one has any HP at all). Each injury is it's own "thing" (whether that's a number or a condition or both is yet unknown). Death would not be a result of cumulative injuries, but rather a risk of any particular injury or the continued use of an area injured (aggravating the wound). With all that said, I'd still like to see it simple and easy to conceptualize during actual game play. I'm having difficultly picturing it in its completed form and was looking for examples that maybe other systems use that would be close enough for me to borrow and hack if needed.

 

[chaochou]

What I'm looking for is a non-determined progress toward death. A player doesn't know before hand whether any particular hit will be the final blow. While in most systems damage is random, it is still usually a known how many hits or how much damage will dispatch the character.

It's hard to find and, in some ways a little bit of a mess, but The Riddle of Steel does swordfighting extremely well, with exactly this kind of damage system.

I don't have it to hand, but roughly speaking if you take 3 damage to the head that means your opponent gets a roll on the '3' table cross referenced with 'head' and applies the effects - pain, bleeding, death, that kind of thing. It's sharp, brutal and gritty. By which I mean, getting tagged to the arm or leg will likely get you killed because you'll probably be taking serious pain penalties to your dicepool and unable to defend the killing head or gut shot which comes in next.

As a combat system it's slightly cumbersome and difficult to comprehend, as well as really, seriously lethal. But it has the kind of damage modelling you're talking about here.

Similarly Rolemaster has Hit Points but also the famous A through E criticals, which can turn a nothing blow into a one-hit kill. TRoS damage tables are a little bit like the RM crit tables, without the faffing around with the HP.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

That said, what I'm looking for, using your example, is that the second 5 points are not cumulative with the first 5 points. Each hit is it's own separate injury and does not stack with the initial or subsequent injury's.(One does not have a total HP before death. In fact, no one has any HP at all). Each injury is it's own "thing" (whether that's a number or a condition or both is yet unknown). Death would not be a result of cumulative injuries, but rather a risk of any particular injury or the continued use of an area injured (aggravating the wound). With all that said, I'd still like to see it simple and easy to conceptualize during actual game play. I'm having difficultly picturing it in its completed form and was looking for examples that maybe other systems use that would be close enough for me to borrow and hack if needed.

The damage save method in True 20 and in Mutants and Masterminds appears to function almost exactly as what you are asking for.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

You might even take a look at one of the old Lord of the Rings, game, I think it was called Rolemaster. It had a horrifying critical hit system. In the first 5 minutes of a tourney game I played in, a portcullis trap got a high critical on a PC and the table indicated that one of the vertical bars went through his eye, killing him instantly. I only played a few times, but it was my impression that most PCs died due to a roll on the critical maiming table rather than hp loss.

 

[Oliveloaf]

Not sure if you're looking for this but try Ars Magica. It has 5 wound levels Light, Medium, Heavy, Incapacitated, and Dead. Depending on how much your to hit is over the defender's defense you'll inflict a wound level but a person can have any number of wounds. Each wound category gives a negative to totals so unless you're killed outright you'll just rack up tons of negatives to rolls. Only later when you do recovery rolls do they get better or worse and you die of gangrene or something.