Non-Munchkin Epic

[EyeontheMountain]

Well, I have been resisting for a long time, but I am finally getting ready to start up an Epic game (probably on Yahoogroups) but I am worried about munchkins ruining the game for the sake of justifying their petty existences.... (well, that is another rant)

Now, I have my own list of banned/restricted things in normal games, things that are just overpowered and game-breaking, but I would like everyone's opinions on what I should definitely not allow in an epic game.

Muchkins, tell me what you would play, and non-munchkins, what you would never allow in your games.

The intent of the gmae is to allow epic goodness, including epic magic and items, but not having a bunch of one-trick ponies who can charge and devestate, or dodge lightning bolts from Thor, etc, but are not real characters with a wide variety of abilities and interests in varying areas.

So, any lists.

*Waits with bated breath*

 

[diaglo]

the point for an Epic PC... is that he doesn't exist in a box.

he got there somehow.

knew people.
made a name for himself.


so play that up.

 

[Schayde]

Epic campaigns are very hard if you want to stay away from Munchkins.
If you play a heavy combat style - most of the monsters you face will have a lot of instant kill powers. What is harder, that most munchkins have their AC so high that even a Pit Fiend needs a 20 to hit them. Their saves are all maxed out beyond belief, so the DM is forced to fudge the occasional DC to give them a challange.

When running Epic, it is better to concentrate more on the ROLEplay than the ROLLplay. A Red Dragon can be easily beaten by a Munchkin's character, but a simple couple of riddles can confound the player. (That is if the Munchkin can even pay attention - because there is no combat involved).

At Epic level, most battles take a very long time. My players are starting to get Epic level (and they've been playing them since they were 1st level). Recently - in a "Throne Room" battle, they faced a dozen 5th level Fighters, 2 Hive Mother Beholders (Lords of Madness), a 8th level Sorcerer Mind Flayer, and an Reverd Elder Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun). The party consited of a 19th level Black Guard/Fighter, a 20th level Druid, a 17th level Rogue Shade (EL of 21), a 19th level Dwarven Cleric, and a 18th level Warforged Warrior. The battle was the only thing we did that night - from about 7:30pm to 11:00pm.
Granted, the Blackguard was stuck in the mouth of one of the Hive Mothers most of the fight (he didn't have even a dagger to cut his way out - only had his Greatsword); and the Druid was eventually turned into a small Stone Fly (he tried to get above the Phaerimm by turning into a fly and going above him - but because of the Phaerimm's True Seeing - he saw his true form and used Flesh to Stone). But that's still 3 1/2 hours playing for just one cambat.

On the other hand, on the next adventure, it was a heavy roleplaying adventure - a lot lot of puzzle solving and interacting with creatures that really didn't need to be fought. Like an insane Gnome Illusionist Lich (good aligned) that has been trapped in a dungeon for centuries because a cave-in damaged his phylactery (damaged, not destroyed), and he fears that leaving it would cause more damage, and it would not survive his reforming. But he knows how to solve the next riddle that if the party gets wrong will trigger a major Mordinkeiden's Disjunction.

 

[Goddess FallenAngel]

Easy. Don't invite munchkins to play.

Truth is, I don't think it really matters what you do and don't allow - the true munchkin will find a way to take advantage of it. And, well - any epic game is going to have an element of munchkiness just by the nature of the epic rules.

The easiest way I found to stop this in PBP/PBEM games was to send out an open call for character histories - not builds, histories - and let them know that it isn't first-come, first-served for game slots. It's fairly easy to tell the munchkins from the roleplayers, and that way you also get to hand-pick the characters for your campaign.

I'm currently playing in an epic game on PBP. It has a fairly heavy amount of roleplaying, and even though all of our characters are at least slightly munckiny in their specialities (I'm not even gonna mention my rogue's hide check and damage while sneak attacking for fear of being flammed ), it really doesn't come into play very often, because we are far too busy roleplaying.

 

[damian_natas]

its a munchkin

well if u dont want munchkin
u should make feats like improved metamagic, leap attack, arcane thesis and multispell banned.
also prevent players from having more than 2 prestige classes for every base class.
and dont allow spells like celerity, it unbalance the game by allowing a caster to never get hit and makes counterspelling obsolete.

oh and if you missed something and a player still manages to eclipse an epic spell with an improved normal spell. there's always a spell called anti magic field to fix things.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Communicate what you expect from the game. In other words, tell the players that you don't want munchkins, and that the goal of the game will not be too have DPR (Damage per Round).

That's for avoiding munchkins. But that's just the start - what do you expect from happening in an epic campaign?

I ranted a little bit in another thread on this - basically you should expect your play style to change. It ties in with munchkins - if all you do is running through epic dungeons and fighting epic goblin warriors and epic beholders, your epic game is a low level game with bigger numbers.

I think one difference about an epic game (at least towards "most" non-epic games) should be that it is about changing the world, not just saving it, getting rich or similar things.
Diaglos post provides a good tie-in - the PCs got where they are somehow. They have connections. Maybe it's time to pull some strings and, I don't know, create a new empire, end the blood war, destroy a major god or create/become a new one, tear the universe apart and assemble it how you prefer it. This also means that it has to be the PCs driving the plot - what do they want to achieve? The times where it is them trying to figure the plot of the Evil Overlord to free his God from a prison. Now it's them that set things in motion.

If you communicate your potential players that this is the direction you want to go, you will see a self-selction of players. The point here is - they have authority and power. Maybe not every player is "fit" for the task, but it might be enough if some of them are and the rest goes along...

 

[gizmo33]

or dodge lightning bolts from Thor, etc, but are not real characters with a wide variety of abilities and interests in varying areas.

Just lightning bolts? Oh, yea, that's because Thor was a one trick pony. I think if Thor expressed more angst he wouldn't come across as such a munchkin. All he seems to do is bully dwarves, kill giants, and brag about it. I don't know how much fun he'd be to DM.

 

[Runestar]

I don't see why I can't have a compelling backstory, and play a very optimized character. I doubt I would even need to jump through hoops or take advantage of grey areas in the rules. Yes, with some twinking, I can probably create a PC with a hundred attacks each round, or capable of dishing out damage in the thousands. But why bother, when a few hundred more than suffices?

I disagree with the part about limiting the number of prcs in your game. I certainly don't need to multiclass to create a broken PC (think wiz20), nor will aggressive multiclassing necessarily produce a broken character either (in fact, I advocate this path for non-casters, if only to close the gap between melee and casters).

 

[Dice4Hire]

I ran an epic game for a short while on Yahoogroups before dropping it down to the low double digits to make my life sane. The players who took a class, and a prestige were really not that bad. Lots of power, and lots of abilities, but not broken. The players who went out of their way to break the game, and pile on immunities were the killers. Tell your players you are playing at about 75% effectiveness, not 100%, and anyone who is too effective will get nerfed or outright kicked out. I would ask for histories first, then build ideas and finally character sheets. That way you can see problems coming. ALso, limit the books a lot, and limit races even more. Most brokeness comes form odd race and class combinations. Jsut go through it slow and you will be able to see what is broken.

Also, for all that is holy, ban Book of Exalted Deeds.

 

[Engilbrand]

Interesting fact: This post was made over 3 and a half years ago. I thought that something was a little off when he didn't clarify 3.5 or 4e epic.
On topic: I hate ineffective characters. I consider them a waste of time. I don't want to play one, and I HATE when other people make them. It's always possible to make fun characters who are useful. Going out of your way to make a purposely crappy character "for the roleplay" is ridiculous, and I tend to tell people that up front.
My gaming group has a few people who like to make "roleplay" characters who are barely good at anything. I usually tell them to stop purposely being annoying. In character, if they don't show themselves to be worthwhile, I tend to refuse to party with them.