D&D 5E Non-stealth surprise

[doctorbadwolf]

So a heavily armed man is granted an audience with the president. He seems nice enough. The Secret Service would be caught completely off-guard if he suddenly attacked.

Surrrrre.

If the guards are as well trained as the us secret service, you have a point. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Deception or SoH should cover this, but also if the party face has done a good job setting everyone at ease, I'd allow it.

 

[Ancalagon]

Yes, guards do the same routine every day. They may look at the barbarian and go, "whoa, that guy is strong." but they would never expect anyone to openly attack a guard when they are in the castle occupied by an army. That would be suicidal.

It's not that guards would never expect an attack, it's if they did, they would act differently and take precautions to prevent an attack (disarm & restrain, or deny an audience).

They obviously were not expecting an attack, or they would not have taken the party to see the king (presumably armed for war).

Why aren't they expecting an attack? Why are they bringing heavily armed people to see the king they are charged to protect? Hell, why do they even have to see the *king*? Can't a chancellor talk to them instead?

This scenario only makes sense if

a: The person in charge of security is an imbecile or
b: The party is well trusted already... which seems unlikely because one of their members probably has a reputation as a murderous maniac.

 

[Satyrn]

Why aren't they expecting an attack? Why are they bringing heavily armed people to see the king they are charged to protect? Hell, why do they even have to see the *king*? Can't a chancellor talk to them instead?

This scenario only makes sense if

a: The person in charge of security is an imbecile or
b: The party is well trusted already... which seems unlikely because one of their members probably has a reputation as a murderous maniac.

I disagree. There are infinite reasons for this scenario to occur. Here's one more:

The setting itself might be such that the king loses face if he won't hold audience with armed warriors.

 

[Ancalagon]

Aaand if that is the case there will be adequate security measures in place.

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[ad_hoc]

That.

If the barbarian wants to fake the guard out (is the restroom down that hall?) then deception could oppose insight for surprise. If he just says "screw it, I attack the guard" then roll initiative. Any guard that beats his initiative saw him start to draw a weapon and reacted before he could attack, and after he attacks every guard gets an attack on him as a reaction, because guarding a dangerous person means having an attack readied.

You can't ready an action outside of combat.

If you could then everyone would and you would just have a bunch of reaction attacks on the first round like your example which is silly.

 

[epithet]

You can't ready an action outside of combat.

If you could then everyone would and you would just have a bunch of reaction attacks on the first round like your example which is silly.

Of course you can, you can do anything "outside of combat." You only need to roll initiative when it becomes important who goes first.

The reason that you don't always have everyone with an attack held is that standing ready to smack someone is a decidedly unfriendly way to go through your day, and will wreck your social interactions, you can only hold and attack for a reasonably specific trigger, and you can get more done with an action than with a held attack on your reaction.

In many circumstances, if a player declares that he's holding an attack ("I'm holding my crossbow on him--if he makes any sudden moves, I'm squeezing the trigger,") it's probably time to roll initiative anyway... but not necessarily always.

This isn't a video game. There's no "in combat" or "out of combat," there is just narrative speed vs. initiative order. Also, Mexican standoffs can and do happen.

 

[ad_hoc]

Of course you can, you can do anything "outside of combat." You only need to roll initiative when it becomes important who goes first.

Readying an action is not doing something. It's a meta concept. It is a rule in the game which allows you to act before someone else.

Everyone wants to do that. So the game resolves it by having an opposed Dexterity check. The character who wins the check takes the first action.

I would absolutely walk away from a game which allowed readied actions outside of combat. If you win initiative you should go first.

 

[Satyrn]

Aaand if that is the case there will be adequate security measures in place.

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Maybe. But I'm really disagreeing with your absolutist statement. I just don't think there is only one sort of king, one sort of setting. You said the scenario doesn't make sense to you. Maybe it doesn't make sense because you're making assumptions about what's going on that simply don't apply.

 

[Caliban]

Of course you can, you can do anything "outside of combat." You only need to roll initiative when it becomes important who goes first.

The reason that you don't always have everyone with an attack held is that standing ready to smack someone is a decidedly unfriendly way to go through your day, and will wreck your social interactions, you can only hold and attack for a reasonably specific trigger, and you can get more done with an action than with a held attack on your reaction.

In many circumstances, if a player declares that he's holding an attack ("I'm holding my crossbow on him--if he makes any sudden moves, I'm squeezing the trigger,") it's probably time to roll initiative anyway... but not necessarily always.

This isn't a video game. There's no "in combat" or "out of combat," there is just narrative speed vs. initiative order. Also, Mexican standoffs can and do happen.

I'm more concerned about avoiding a situation where the PC's are invading a dungeon complex or enemy stronghold and every room after the first (or whenever the DM decides the defenders are aware of the PC's) has multiple guards with readied attacks as soon as a PC opens a door.

For that reason, I don't allow readied actions outside of initiative situations (because initiative isn't always for combat - just usually). You may disagree.