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non switchers: what can wotc do to win you back?

non switchers: what can wotc do to win you back?


thedungeondelver

Adventurer

Realistically? Nothing. Absolutely zip. I'm not even in the "well he plays older editions but still buys minis and tiles". I have tons of Reaper minis, both pre-painted plastic and painted (and unpainted :( ) metal, plus loads of DWARVEN FORGE.

Unrealistically? Re-release older editions of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS (either as PDFs or in print).

But they won't, so.

 

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The accurate response that seemed to fit was "Publish 5E". However, I simply don't care for the direction WotC is taking the game. I have yet to play 4E but I own the books and have read them and know it is not the ruleset I care to play long-term. 3rd Edition was fun while it lasted but it, too, is NOT the rulest I care to use. Problem then is that the older rulesets still need polishing and manipulating to get them where I want them. WotC isn't going to do that for me unless they take a rather massive retrograde movement with the next edition and that just isn't going to happen.

No, although "5E" is accurate it's not really the truth. The sad truth is that, insofar as I can see, they've lost me. Lost me forever. I'm still ready and willing to play any version of D&D, anytime, but as a paying customer, I'm GONE.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
I draw the following conclusions from the poll at this time (and even though it shouldn't need to be stated, these are entirely my opinion):

  • The number one thing that would bring people back as customers (not as fans of 4E, but as paying customers, which is all that WotC should really care about) is return to selling pdf's of WotC's products (or at the very least, pdf's of older edtion products). I don't know how many people have stopped being WotC customers over this one issue (since the poll is just a small sample), but it seems to me that it's substantiave enough that WotC could expect to see a noticable increase in book sales and DDI subscriptions if they did this one thing. It still seems to me that the pdf decision was an absolute lose-lose for WotC and WotC's customers. The only people it didn't hurt were pdf pirates. I'd bet that if this was the only thing addressed and pdf sales resumed, and the rest completely ignored, most of the people that stopped buying new products, even if they didn't "play" 4E, would come back. (Test of this here.)
  • Those that say "Nothing can bring you back", are the second largest group/factor. But, since there's nothing that can be done about it, it would seem to be futile to expend effort or resources on this. Unfortunately, at least according to their statements, this door has been shut forever.:(
  • The third largest factor, only slightly behind the pdf issue, is "Apologize and atone for their sins". (I just love the way that was worded, sounds so grievous and formal.;)) As I said earlier, I'm betting that as important as this is to many (me included), if WotC started selling pdf's again, and never made a public apology or statement, most would start buying WotC products again (at least I would:blush:). However, the longer it takes to start offering electronic versions of older edition material (and to a slightly lesser extent, current edition material), the less likely people will be to "come back". It's just human nature. Do without something for long enough, and you start wondering why you ever wanted it in the first place. Apathy in your target, even the fringe of your target group, is probably not a good thing.
  • The fourth factor, also fairly close in numbers to the first three, is "Release 5E (assuming you like the changes)". Of course, this makes the assumption that one likes the changes, which for WotC would probably just be the same as when they released 4E. Some are going to like it, some aren't. Quite honestly, I think WotC would probably lose as many 4E fans as they would pick up fans of older editions - or possibly lose more than they pick up. I wonder if numbers would show a steady decline in overall customers whith each new edition or not - or just random popularity? Anyways, for as many people as want this, this probably holds no real benefit for WotC (at least until, or if, 4E runs it's course). The above reasons, and the type of model WotC is using for product development and sales, probably precludes a 4.5E also
  • The Fifth factor is, "Go OGL". Although I know WotC will never do this, and I understand why they made the GSL (I just don't agree with the reasons), it's a real shame they didn't maintain the "Open" culture that was adopted with 3E. The RPG world really expanded and became so much more interesting and diverse because of the OGL. Hopefully that never goes away. But I think an incredible opportunity to expand that even more was lost with the GSL.
  • The sixth leading factor is, "Publish more older edition material in parallel with 4E". Although I didn't select this, and didn't say anything about it in my post about my choices, I truly wonder why this isn't done? Dungeon magazine used to contain adventures from many different systems and editions, even up into the early days of 3E. I remember issues that had adventures for AD&D, 3E, and Alternity, all side-by-side - living in harmony within Dungeon's pages. When and Why did this change? Dragon used to have articles for multiple systems and editions also. I really loved the versatility and diversity both magazines had. It does seem as though something was lost when this changed. (I know that, technically, any material is adaptable to any edition, but not everyone is capable of doing this - I am, but many aren't.)
  • The rest of the factors, although not unimportant, seem to be of a low enough percentage that they are probably not as prominent in peoples thinking, and probably don't have enough benefit-to-cost ratio to be worthwhile to WotC. And some, such as "Publish a setting, class, or rule subset you feel is missing", or "Publish 4E-compatible variants (Unearthed Arcana style)", may just take care of themselves in time. The former by WotC as they put out new material, the latter by 3pp's (maybe).
If I had to draw just one conlusion, or choose one thing WotC could do to increase their customer base and sales, it would be to bring back pdf's (or some electronic format) ASAP. Seems to be a no brainer.:erm:
 
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Frost

First Post
I picked "publish more older-edition material in parallel with 4e." If they started producing 3.x or or 1e stuff, I might pick it up. 4e just doesn't interest me. I can't imagine them actually do this, though.

Edit: My interest in 3.x and 1e is because it is easily usable with Castles & Crusades. I've moved on to a game where I feel more at home.
 
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Like many others, 4e is not really my cup of tea, so that's a bit of a dead end. We're currently playing a 3.5e campaign, and the group will probably go to WHFRP after that (I'm a bit of a PF fan, but the bloke who's putting in the hours to GM the next campaign gets to choose his system, and I've never tried WHFRP so it might be fun)

Bought the 4e core books, and was uninspired and uninterested by them. The whole business just seemed flat and lacking something. Some of the group reacted with outright contempt.

I still buy miniatures now and again, and will probably at least consider the Dark Sun books purely as a reference because I love the setting, but other than that, I'll wait and see what 5e is like.
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I draw the following conclusions from the poll at this time (and even though it shouldn't need to be stated, these are entirely my opinion):

  • The number one thing that would bring people back as customers (not as fans of 4E, but as paying customers, which is all that WotC should really care about) is return to selling pdf's of WotC's products (or at the very least, pdf's of older edtion products). I don't know how many people have stopped being WotC customers over this one issue (since the poll is just a small sample), but it seems to me that it's substantiave enough that WotC could expect to see a noticable increase in book sales and DDI subscriptions if they did this one thing. It still seems to me that the pdf decision was an absolute lose-lose for WotC and WotC's customers. The only people it didn't hurt were pdf pirates. I'd bet that if this was the only thing addressed and pdf sales resumed, and the rest completely ignored, most of the people that stopped buying new products, even if they didn't "play" 4E, would come back. (Test of this here.)

It might just mean that a lot of nonswitchers are interested in older edition products that were only "in-print" as PDFs. Doesn't mean that they'd start subscribing to DDI or buying 4e books, just buying older stuff again.
 

El Mahdi

Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
It might just mean that a lot of nonswitchers are interested in older edition products that were only "in-print" as PDFs. Doesn't mean that they'd start subscribing to DDI or buying 4e books, just buying older stuff again.

True, but I think there are some (namely me:D). I don't think I'm too unique in that regard, but the other poll seems to be disproving my conclusion (damn you, hard data:p). Of course there haven't been a whole lot of responses yet, but there seems to be a pretty consistent trend right from the start.

Oh, well.:erm:
 



First a note - One must exercise caution in drawing conclusions based on polls like this. While it provides interesting perspective it must be remembered that the poll is skewed because it represents only that cross-section which visits these boards AND is motivated to vote in the poll. It's not necessarily an accurate sampling of responses. It MIGHT be accurate in its representations, but only by chance. What follows is just my current thinking. I don't pretend that it's any kind of detailed, supportable analysis. It's more like thinking out loud.

The sixth leading factor is, "Publish more older edition material in parallel with 4E". Although I didn't select this, and didn't say anything about it in my post about my choices, I truly wonder why this isn't done?
IMO, it's because of a firm belief that support of more than one edition only undermines purchases overall. They don't see the purchase of a 1E book or PDF as anything but a LESSER amount of money than they could otherwise have gotten by selling the same person some 4E equivalent product.

It hasn't appeared that way to me until just recently, but such is now my impression. They won't say it but they despise the idea of selling ANYTHING that might support a previous edition instead of supporting the current edition. I think they had fooled themselves into thinking that they might actually be able to starve the holdouts into accepting 4E. That they would begin to play - and buy - 4E products if they stopped selling anything to support older materials. Where they miscalculated IMO is that 4E really has fractured the fanbase to a greater degree than was thought possible/probable. They produced an edition that simply alienated too many people. It's not that it was manifestly BAD, just that it was manifestly not a ruleset whose approach was palatable to too large a segment of potential consumers.

Dungeon magazine used to contain adventures from many different systems and editions, even up into the early days of 3E. I remember issues that had adventures for AD&D, 3E, and Alternity, all side-by-side - living in harmony within Dungeon's pages. When and Why did this change? Dragon used to have articles for multiple systems and editions also. I really loved the versatility and diversity both magazines had. It does seem as though something was lost when this changed. (I know that, technically, any material is adaptable to any edition, but not everyone is capable of doing this - I am, but many aren't.)
Those materials that were available for older rulesets into the early days of 3E were firstly materials that were still LEFT OVER from the TSR days. Also, some materials continued to be submitted for older systems. But once that was gone through and most players had migrated to 3E they had every motivation to cease any and all support for anything but the current edition.

At that time circumstances were on their side in such a decision. There was no OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, or Labyrinth Lord systems to mimic the older editions and provide a foundation on which other 3rd party publishers could base support for out of print versions of the game. Even Hackmaster wasn't published until 2001, and that was probably allowed because they thought that the money from licensing the system would be worth the miniscule erosion in money otherwise destined for 3E. And at that time I think they were correct.

However, that was then. In the present climate there ARE a variety of 3rd party systems that mimic older editions including 3E via Pathfinder and it may be - MAY be, mind you - that cutting off everything to do with older editions is a calculated move that they hoped would result in dissatisfaction with attempts to find old/old-style materials and eventually bring more people into the 4E fold. But I don't think they anticipated the degree of dissatisfaction with 4E; that so MANY people would simply find it not to their taste. Accordingly, they were not prepared to properly deal with the unexpectedly heavy migration to other systems - whether to the D&D clones or otherwise. I suspect that their present posture is something of a knee-jerk reaction when things failed to go as reliably as they had anticipated.

Maybe.
 

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