D&D 5E noob questions: sneak attack, firing into melee and opportunity attacks

[Ancalagon]

Hello

I thought I would bundle these questions in a single thread for efficiency.

So I used to play 3.X a fair bit and I'm still learning the 5e rules. I've been finding some rather startling differences, so much so I'm wondering if I didn't misunderstand. I'm not saying the new rules are bad (reserving judgement really) but I want to be sure I got it right.

1: Sneak attacks.

So a rogue can do a sneak attack vs an opponent on which he has advantage. Sounds good to me. But based on my reading of the rule, this isn't necessary. All I need is for my opponent to be in a melee fight with someone else - say my buddy Tordek the dwarf is fighting with an orc, all I need to do is walk up to the orc and hit it - no need for a flank etc? I can see this would results in sneak attacks being *extremely* frequent, am I wrong? I can see why they limited it to once a turn!

2: Firing into melee.

This isn't about trying to fire a bow when the angry orc is next to you. Rather, my buddy Tordek is fighting the orc but I'm not feeling very brave today, and I just want to fire an arrow at the orc instead of engaging into melee myself. In the old days, there would be a substantial penalty to this attack, basically making sure you shot just at the right moment make certain you wouldn't hit you ally. I assumed this would be a disadvantage... but I'm not seeing it in the book. Did I miss it? This matters a lot because it influences how well ranged characters can support a meleeist but also to see if sneak attacks can be applied at range.

3: Opportunity attacks
Two sub questions here.

A: can an opportunity attack be a sneak attack? What about a shove (that would make fighters a lot stickier...)? A smite?

B: In 3.X leaving a threatened square triggered an attack of opportunity. But now it's leaving's someone's *reach* Say Tordek is standing directly in front of an orc warrior, but he doesn't want to attack this orc. Rather he want so attack the orc shaman standing directly behind the orc. In 3.x if he started walking around the orc bodyguard he would take an attack of opportunity. But if it's the warrior orc's *reach*... then all he has to do is move but stay *close* to the warrior orc, staying in its reach the entire time, until the orc shaman (who remember was just behind the orc warrior) is in Tordek's reach...

 

[hejtmane]

The first reading is correct the rogue sneak attack is it's bread and butter without there is no point in ever playing one their damage would be terrible so yea and note swash bucklers and another element for the sneak attack

Firing in melee depends it can be considered cover by your DM depending on you combat and layout etc. See PHB pg 196 on cover (note sharpshooter feats eliminates that issue)

 

[BoldItalic]

1) Correct. Normally there is no concept of flanking in 5e, although there are optional rules for it (DMG p.251). But note that your ally doesn't need to be attacking the target, just being adjacent is sufficient.

2) Normally, when shooting into melee, you either hit your target or miss completely. It's that simple. There is an optional rule in the (DMG p.272) for hitting cover, which, if the DM chooses to use that option, gives a chance to hit another creature who is in front of the target. Even so, there is no chance of a missed shot hitting another creature standing behind or to one side of the target.

3a) You can apply sneak attack to an opportunity attack, provided the conditions are met at that instant, and you can combine it with smite if that is also available. However, you can only do sneak attack with a finesse or ranged weapon attack so shove doesn't qualify.

3b) Yes, you can move around an enemy without provoking an opportunity attack (if there is room, of course). In 5e, opportunity attacks generally occur when someone tries to break away from combat or move right past an enemy but doesn't want to use their action to disengage.

5e is very much simplified and combat is less tactical. It speeds up play because players don't have to work out their manoeuvring around the board in great detail. But there are optional rules for players who prefer to retain that element of the game.

 

[Ancalagon]

2) Normally, when shooting into melee, you either hit your target or miss completely. It's that simple. There is an optional rule in the (DMG p.272) for hitting cover, which, if the DM chooses to use that option, gives a chance to hit another creature who is in front of the target. Even so, there is no chance of a missed shot hitting another creature standing behind or to one side of the target.

I'm not suggesting hitting your ally - rather a penalty to ensure this doesn't happen, which I'm surprised doesn't exist.

3a) You can apply sneak attack to an opportunity attack, provided the conditions are met at that instant, and you can combine it with smite if that is also available. However, you can only do sneak attack with a finesse or ranged weapon attack so shove doesn't qualify.

Thank you - can you do so if you already have used a sneak attack?

However, you can only do sneak attack with a finesse or ranged weapon attack so shove doesn't qualify.

Oh sorry, I meant "can you shove with an opportunity attack" (or use other "special" attacks like this), not shove and sneak ant the same time

3b) Yes, you can move around an enemy without provoking an opportunity attack (if there is room, of course). In 5e, opportunity attacks generally occur when someone tries to break away from combat or move right past an enemy but doesn't want to use their action to disengage.

5e is very much simplified and combat is less tactical. It speeds up play because players don't have to work out their manoeuvring around the board in great detail. But there are optional rules for players who prefer to retain that element of the game.

I see - it will be much harder for fighters and other tanks to protect party member (unless they can opportunity shove)

 

[Rhogar_Rarr]

I believe you cannot shove with an opportunity attack because an opportunity attack is a special reaction that simply allows you to make 1 attack and nothing else. Although, you are correct that you can shove in place of one of your attacks when you take the attack action on your turn.

And yes, you can sneak attack on your turn and then sneak attack with an opportunity attack on your enemy's turn.

Anyway, hope this helps you sort through the new edition. Happy gaming!

 

[Illithidbix]

1: Sneak attacks.

So a rogue can do a sneak attack vs an opponent on which he has advantage. Sounds good to me. But based on my reading of the rule, this isn't necessary. All I need is for my opponent to be in a melee fight with someone else - say my buddy Tordek the dwarf is fighting with an orc, all I need to do is walk up to the orc and hit it - no need for a flank etc? I can see this would results in sneak attacks being *extremely* frequent, am I wrong? I can see why they limited it to once a turn!

Yes.
It's Advantage (e.g. attacking from hiding) OR the target having an enemy within 5'
Note, this is *An Enemy of the Target*, not *your ally* in exciting fights where the enemy of your enemy isn't your friend.

Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.

You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.

The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.

Note the once per turn, not once per round? That's important for 3A.
Similarly, the Cunning Action use of Disengage is meant for rogues to be able to move into melee and sneak attack, then get out again.

2: Firing into melee.

This isn't about trying to fire a bow when the angry orc is next to you. Rather, my buddy Tordek is fighting the orc but I'm not feeling very brave today, and I just want to fire an arrow at the orc instead of engaging into melee myself. In the old days, there would be a substantial penalty to this attack, basically making sure you shot just at the right moment make certain you wouldn't hit you ally. I assumed this would be a disadvantage... but I'm not seeing it in the book. Did I miss it? This matters a lot because it influences how well ranged characters can support a meleeist but also to see if sneak attacks can be applied at range.

Short answer, creatures grant half cover so you get +2 AC most of the time when in melee with an opponent, but depends upon the line of the shot.

Basic Rules and PHB
Cover
Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.

There are three degrees of cover. If a target is behind multiple sources of cover, only the most protective degree of cover applies; the degrees aren’t added together. For example, if a target is behind a creature that gives half cover and a tree trunk that gives three quarters cover, the target has three-quarters cover.

A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.

There are optional rules for hitting cover (including other creatures in melee) in the DMG.

When a ranged attack misses a target that has cover, you can use this optional rule to determine whether the cover was struck by the attack.
First determine if the attack roll would have hit the protected target without the cover. If the attack roll falls within a range low enough to miss the target but high enough to strike the target if there had been no cover, the object is struck.
If a creature is proving cover for the missed creature and the attack roll exceeds the AC of the covering creature the covering creature is hit.

So if you have higher AC than the target then you plain won't be hit, which is a bit odd.
But less odd IMO than the fact that it can be easier to hit something with very high AC by targeting something next to it, or that highly skilled archers have *more chance* of hurting their heavily armoured allies in melee that other editions/systems variants of firing into melee allowed.


I also believe that the Archery fighting style giving +2 to hit is intended to counter +2AC for half-cover for firing into melee.
The Sharpshooter and Spell Sniper feats also allow you to ignore cover penalties.

3: Opportunity attacks
Two sub questions here.

A: can an opportunity attack be a sneak attack? What about a shove (that would make fighters a lot stickier...)? A smite?

B: In 3.X leaving a threatened square triggered an attack of opportunity. But now it's leaving's someone's *reach* Say Tordek is standing directly in front of an orc warrior, but he doesn't want to attack this orc. Rather he want so attack the orc shaman standing directly behind the orc. In 3.x if he started walking around the orc bodyguard he would take an attack of opportunity. But if it's the warrior orc's *reach*... then all he has to do is move but stay *close* to the warrior orc, staying in its reach the entire time, until the orc shaman (who remember was just behind the orc warrior) is in Tordek's reach...

A) Yes! And because the OA presumably happens on *another TURN* it doesn't matter if you Sneak Attacked on your turn.
However I can find no way of Attacking without using your Reaction, and you only get one Reaction until the start of your Next Turn.

B) Yes. Mostly for ease of theater of the Mind. Personally if I was using a grid I might be inclined to go back to 3.5 Style

 

[BoldItalic]

I'm not suggesting hitting your ally - rather a penalty to ensure this doesn't happen, which I'm surprised doesn't exist.

In 5e, everyone is assumed to be reasonably competent at everything, so if you are shooting arrows or throwing axes, you are assumed to be able to aim well enough not to miss by 5 feet and hit the wrong person.

Thank you - can you do so if you already have used a sneak attack?

Yes. You can use sneak attack once per turn, so you can use it on your turn and then again on an opportunity attack that happens on someone else's turn even if it's the same round.

Oh sorry, I meant "can you shove with an opportunity attack" (or use other "special" attacks like this), not shove and sneak ant the same time

No. Shove uses your action whereas an opportunity attack uses your reaction and they are not interchangeable. Notice that the wording for Shoving a Creature starts "Using the attack action ..." whereas the wording for Opportunity Attacks (same page) includes the wording "... you use your reaction ...". There are things you can do inside your action that you can't do inside your reaction, and vice versa.

I see - it will be much harder for fighters and other tanks to protect party member (unless they can opportunity shove)

Possibly, but remember that your enemies are similarly constrained. Any tactics they can use against you, you can also use against them. It's a fair fight, but played out to different rules.

 

[sim-h]

So if you have higher AC than the target then you plain won't be hit, which is a bit odd.

Actually since the AC of the target is increased by 2, a 'covering' character needs 2 higher base AC than the target to avoid ever being hit...I guess in this case the shot hits the covering character but bounces off armour, shield, tough hide, etc.

 

[Ancalagon]

In 5e, everyone is assumed to be reasonably competent at everything, so if you are shooting arrows or throwing axes, you are assumed to be able to aim well enough not to miss by 5 feet and hit the wrong person.

But hitting an enemy engaged in a vicious sword fight with a friend is a lot more difficult than hitting that enemy who's just standing there. Your argument could be use to say that you don't need a penalty to hit at long range etc...

I can also tell you that the position of two people in a sword fight is highly variable, unpredictable, and often far less than 5 feet.

Yes. You can use sneak attack once per turn, so you can use it on your turn and then again on an opportunity attack that happens on someone else's turn even if it's the same round.

Very clear thanks.

No. Shove uses your action whereas an opportunity attack uses your reaction and they are not interchangeable. Notice that the wording for Shoving a Creature starts "Using the attack action ..." whereas the wording for Opportunity Attacks (same page) includes the wording "... you use your reaction ...". There are things you can do inside your action that you can't do inside your reaction, and vice versa.

aaaah. I see the distinction. This also means that a Divine Smite *can* be done on an opportunity attack.

 

[BoldItalic]

But hitting an enemy engaged in a vicious sword fight with a friend is a lot more difficult than hitting that enemy who's just standing there. Your argument could be use to say that you don't need a penalty to hit at long range etc...

I can also tell you that the position of two people in a sword fight is highly variable, unpredictable, and often far less than 5 feet.

Of course, but 5e isn't really intended to be a simulation. It's intended to be a fun game with just enough mechanics to add richness to the narrative without worrying too much about realism. After all, the rules for spell combat are broadly similar and fit into the same overall combat scheme and you can't say those are realistic at all - they were just invented and tweaked until they came out fun, simple and not too broken.

aaaah. I see the distinction. This also means that a Divine Smite *can* be done on an opportunity attack.

Yup. Because you are making a melee weapon attack and the wording matches exactly.

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