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Normal/High Magic/Not Gritty How-To

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
Brother MacLaren, that's a fascinating question.

I think it's fair to say that the PCs in my game are the most powerful people in their home country (or, at least, the home country where I first started the campaign.) I think that people don't flatly state that the PCs are the "best" because that severely limits possibilities for future adventures that you haven't even thought of yet. I also think that it's sometimes galling to the DM when the players (not the PCs) feel like their character is invulnerable.

Note that making them feel unique and important, and telling them that they're flatly the best, are not the same thing. High lvl PCs deserve to feel special and powerful. Hopefully, they've earned it.

To combat ingrained expectations, I often try to realistically oppose my PCs with much less powerful threats (1 HD experts who are politically well-placed, or 5 HD monsters who try to use sneakiness and public rumor over brawn.) I have mixed success, but it's always a surprise when the PC kills the bad guy with a single swing of the sword -- only to find out afterwards that they're the son of someone important.
 
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S'mon

Legend
I have no objection to PCs being 'the best'; however if a group of 4-6+ PCs are all 'the best' there's probably not much that can challenge them. 'The Best' probably works better in a lower-magic game where the heroes are still mortal, with mortal frailties and interests.
Generally, IMC there are well-known NPCs who are 'the best' in the world, and as the PCs climb up through the levels they aspire to exceed these paragons. Eventually the PCs either die or succeed. After being 'the best' for awhile though, PCs and NPCs tend to come to be regarded as gods and using my Worship Points System (since adapted by Upper Krust), they begin the long haul towards divinity, entering a whole new ballpark of who's the best. Where before it was Beowulf they aspired to be better than, now it's Thor, and the challenge remains...
 

ciaran00

Explorer
Brother MacLaren said:
You know, I'm curious about this. Everybody brings up this point as an important point in a high-level game - as if it's a balancing factor or something. Now, it doesn't sound like this was your point, but people often seem to be referring to NPCs. Why? Why can't the 17th-level PC wizard be the most powerful mage on the planet?
Take it as a relative point to work from. If you have 17th-level PCs, you really should have a insert-high-high-levelnth wizard as the most powerful mage on the planet. I always evolve my NPCs at the same rate as my PCs. This only makes sense because evolution isn't (and shouldn't be) isolated to the PCs.

ciaran
 

S'mon

Legend
Brother MacLaren said:
Main characters who really are the highest-level dudes around or the best there is at what they do:
Hercules
Samson
Dark Phoenix
Merlin
Conan
Duncan MacLeod

No idea who Dark Phoenix is, and Merlin was a background advice-giver in Arthurian legend, his fireballing abilities were non existent or irrelevant. Samson and Hercules were 'the strongest', the biggest meat shields on the block, and Samson at least had a neat Great Cleave thing, but both were vulnerable to magic, poison, ranged attacks etc.

Conan might have been the greatest all-round warrior of his age, though Marvel seem to have fetishised this, I don't recall REH ever saying that Conan was unbeatable by mortal opponents the way I've seen Marvel editors do in SSOC. I think it'd be fairer to say that in d20 terms Conan had the best stat-array of any character, with nary a low score. That didn't make it invincible but it made him a great survivor.

Not sure about Duncan Macleod - his power in the tv eps I've seen looks trivial when compared to The Kurgan, say. My impression of Highlander (ignoring 2nd movie, natch) was that The Kurgan was by far 'the best', and he still lost.

IMC 'the best' fighter was the CR21 cambion Harecules - and last night, after two years of trying, the PCs and their allies finally kicked his butt.
 

WizarDru

Adventurer
Here's some more High-Level play suggestions:

No man is an island: The PCs are, by high-levels, virtual demi-gods. Their friends, neighbors, family, allies and others are not. And they are vulnerable. High-level play does not have to be just about threats to the PCs...in point of fact, it usually isn't, on the grander scale. Look at PC's story hour, Sepulchrave's and mine: these characters are fighting for king and country, for the defense of all that is just and good and the right for level 1 commoner farmers to live in peace. A recent development in my game had a church of Pelor desecrated, with Orcus sending a bully squad to send a message solely to the party as a form or retailiation. And it made them MAD. I mean MAD. And when some being or beings transported the entire hometown of one character off-plane? You can imagine the reaction. Consider how high-level players interact and protect the many NPCs that make up their world. Find ways to bring danger to them, and for the PCs to deal with it. It makes for a great story. But don't overdue it, or you'll stifle the players or make them feel paranoid and unfairly persecuted. Just do it enough so that they remember that sheer, raw personal power does not a society make.

Divination requires the right question: Much is made of divination spells, but many of them have serious limitations. If multiple enemies move against the party, and use remote agents or obscure agendas, divination becomes a useful tool, not a game-buster. Remember, too, that deities have agendas of their own, and even a good deity may choose to keep his followers in the dark for the greater good, regardless of how that may inconveinence his supplicant today. PC used a brilliant tactic in his story hour, for example, where an evil NPC (Soder, iirc) lied about his name, which screwed up the divinations they used, when they assumed that the name belonged to the evil NPC, and not a different NPC entirely.

Constantly offer new challenges: This doesn't mean tougher monsters, but new experiences. Use new environments such as the underdark, underwater, unique demiplanes and unique conditions. Keep the situation fresh, and suprise your players. They'll love you for it. You'd be suprised how much a simple addition like a powerful snow storm or loud noises can completely knock the legs out from under a high-level party. Have a battle in a lava tube...with LAVA. Fight in a room full of shifting walls of force. Let the players use their powers in new and creative ways to deal with the challenges. It doesn't have to be about powerful enemies, but situations that call on the players ingenuity to handle.

Check in with the PCs: It's a good idea to scan your PCs brains at every level, of course...but actively pursue input at higher levels. Find out what your PCs are looking to do ("I want to become a guildmaster!"), what they feel is working ("Man, I love being able to turn plant creatures!") and what's not ("Every combat feels like the spellcasters do everything.") Ask their intentions, to save yourself unnecessary work. ("I think we need to deal with Lord Gunges...once and for all. Next week, we're going after him, I think.") High-level D&D can be a lot of work for a DM...there's no shame in stepping outside the role and looking for ways to make it easier.

Be Flexible: High-level games have features that will require you to just slide with some things. When a player can head to Mt. Celestia on a whim, and then pop-off to Sigil as an afterthought, you won't have everything prepared ahead of time. Don't try to. Just have the essential data and reuse it. Be prepared for a whole adventure to be sidetracked by a single spell or PC ability, and move on. Don't plot tightly, or you'll only end up disappointed. Don't invest a huge emotional or tactical weight to anything that can be decided on a roll of the die. That isn't to say to ignore it or not hope it will work as you planned...just don't let it ruin your story if it does. Let the players do what they do best, and revel in the joy when they outsmart you.

Don't Sweat the Small Stuff: Don't try to track as much data as you did during low-levels. You have exponentially more data to deal with. Don't worry if you got the hit-dice of a creature wrong, or forgot an ability or simply didn't do X, Y or Z. Just have fun, and let the dice fall where they may. No one's checking your math for errors, and if they are, just let them know that you decided to change something and move on. The goal is to have fun, not worry about exactitudes. Let yourself be human, and never mind the mistakes. You, as a DM, have a lot to worry about, and you're going to forget a rule, misread a spell, misapply a bonus....so what? If everyone is enjoying the game, that's all that matters.
 
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S'Mon:
Dark Phoenix is from X-Men. By far the most powerful being on Earth. Basically has the power of a goddess and a serious temptation to abuse it. Struggles against the temptation of power and ultimately sacrifices herself to prevent further destruction. A great way of showing that high-power characters don't need higher-powered foes to challenge them. The power itself can be the danger.
Duncan MacLeod... well, in very few episodes of the TV series did they ever convince me he was at any risk of losing a fight (even if the bad guy was cheating). He was presented as the best swordsman in his world. But that didn't mean he could solve every problem or protect those he cared about.
You're right, Merlin is a bad example, since he was never the one facing the challenges. But Lancelot and Arthur weren't ever challenged by more powerful foes, they met other types of challenges.
Of course, literature and TV are not a perfect model for game design. But I think it may have some lessons as to how to challenge high-level PCs without saying "Oh yeah? Well, Mordenkainen could still take you." (not that you were saying that)

Ciaran:
But couldn't it be possible (and fun) for the 17th-level PC to destroy the 19th-level NPC? Now, all of a sudden, he actually gets to be the highest-level wizard there is. He's the big dog. He's the one who every king wants on his side or dead; he's the one the level 15's come gunning for.
I think if you then say "Oh, well, there was also this other higher-level guy you didn't know about," you're perpetually denying the player the chance to be The Best. And why shouldn't he get to be The Best? He's certainly earned it. Now, there may still be dragons and demons that would pose a challenge, but in terms of spellcasting ability he's it. The big kahuna. I think that could be a great way to run the (either ending or Epic) stages of the campaign.
What do you think?

Piratecat:
You make some good points. The point I was trying to make is that "Being the best" does not mean you can't be challenged. Boromir was taken down by a horde of inferior opponents. Hercules and Achilles were slain by poison, and Samson had his own weakness that was exploited. The master swordsman in The Seven Samurai was the best in the land, and was slain by a firearm. Phoenix fell victim to the temptation of power. Again, I recognize literature isn't a perfect frame of reference for gaming, but the idea that even the powerful have their weaknesses is valid. A 20th-level rogue may be the best that ever lived, but against a 15th-level necromancer he may be in serious trouble.
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Indeed, being 'the best' doesn't mean you can't be challenged, especially by those mooks just below you who want a leg up....just because you rule the world with an iron fist doesn't mean those guys a level or two below you (with perhaps better connections!) don't also want it. But in Greek myth, at least "the best" is usually only trumped by the Gods....of course, they can act through a mook (Achiles' Heel and all that), but there is some element of 'inevitability' in their deaths, and this is usually regarded in D&D as 'railroading.'

.....which is why I think trying to mimic myth or literature is not the most productive thing in general for D&D. Even if you get 'mythic,' there's still DM fiat involved in every challenge you face. Heracles, Strongest Man in the World, was only felled by the machinations of a deity; Achilles was the same way. Boromir fell to an epic artefact. Samson fell to a convinient barber. These are all devices of plot, not legitimate challenges, and those who try to use them as challenges are either going to be dissapointed, or are going to be accused of railroading, in general. However, that is a seperate thread.....:)

In this one, I simply seek to provide a resource for DM's who want to avoid the "silly" in high-level, normal-magic (e.g.: no significant nerfing) D&D. To give advice on how good stories, with the core elements of plot, conflict, and danger, can still be crafted when the PC's wield grand powers, that just because they are powerful doesn't mean that the game becomes all about bigger monsters and more treasure. I want to help DMs and players develop a game in which high-powered D&D characters still must think, still fear the unknown, still have moral uncertainty, still endure arduous journeys, still exemplify heroic sacrifice, and which still has the very same obstacles in the path of the PC's that have traditionally defined a good story. And yes, there are at least a few players/DM's who feel that the above is impossible....not just difficult, but unavailable...in a game with many of the traditional D&D spells being readily available. I'm not discounting campaigns without the magic or 'invincibility' of typical high level D&D campaigns, merely trying to help DM's who wish to run normal D&D continue to run interesting stories into the highest levels that do not fall into the usual traps.

So, here's a few ideas:

Make the Players Think About Things Other Than Survival: It's true, high-level D&D characters can survive a lot of things. Which is why a DM shouldn't be making the players think about survival of their own characters so much as the survival of what they want those characters to be. As you approach epic levels, it's dang difficult to kill a PC, but you can threaten things other than life and limb -- the lives and limbs of their family, the nation, Truth, Justice, Honor, Good, etc. About the only thing that can threaten their life and limb are the very powerful monsters and NPC's, and those can be integral to the plot, just like they are at lower levels. But since just reducing their hp to -10 doesn't kill them any more, the NPC's have to be diabolical about it (e.g.: disintegrating, true destroying, devouring, turning the creature undead, etc.), or not worry about threatening the livelihood....threatening to destroy a village of innocents, or to kill their wife if they move, are risky things...and they don't threaten the hp of any PC.

Play with Expectations: Divinations are powerful tools, but they can be very simply foiled when they would otherwise destroy the plot. NPC's who lie, plans that aren't playing out exactly as the PC's expect, and red herrings are remarkably potent tools in a DM's plot arsenal. Similarly, it's helpful to create situations in which the "right" solution is actually the worst one to have at the time, and remember to play the ideas of deities to the hilt. Divinations can still be useful ("How many enemies are coming?" will help them avoid abmush, "Would it be helpful to prepare Fireball?" may give them a hint at the weaknesses of foes), but they are not a cure-all. "Whodunnit?" comes up with an unexpected answer (Baron von Butterworth?! But he's dead!!), or the answer they give doesn't solve the true mystery (Well, this thug did the deed, but he's got no motive...), or the usually-simple answer provides very sketchy information. "Who killed the king?" comes up "??" because the king is still alive...but the PC's just know that the divination was incomprehensible. In addition, remember no knowledge is complete. Even the most learned sage in the land can be surprised by a new species of monster they've never met before, or a new cult with arcane practices they haven't studied. Similarly, even if the PC's find out who foreclosed on their mortgage, it shouldn't mean they know how to handle the threat.....if the answer comes up "A Mind Flayer Named Billbob," that should create more questions than it solves.

React: Know what you want the campaign to do. Hinge your adventure on encounters, and events, and make sure you know the circumstances in which they occur. This allows you to mostly allow the PC's to run around doing whatever, but to inject your own ideas in at an opportune moment. A high-level DM without limits on spells has to be able to roll with the punches the PC's throw.....if the plan of the Sahagin Prince is to rule the sea by stealing the Crown of Coral late on a moonless night, that happens even if the PC's decide to Plane Shift - Teleport halfway around the world, or to persue the Great Evil Squid in the Gap...even when the PC's destroy the Squid Who Lurks in the Gap (a kraken who was masterminding the whole thing) before they decide to follow up on the whole sahagin conspiracy, the sahagin steal it...but now don't have a master to give it to. Think in-character about what would happen then....would the Sahagin Prince ransom the crown (setting up the PC's for a dungeon crawl?) or maybe try to use it to unlock the Hellgate himself (setting up the PC's to defend the Coral Palace and it's inhabitants from the beings released?) You may have planned for the PC's to thwart the theivery initially, but they went a different route -- in a high-level game, the risk of this is much higher, and you should ideally be able to rumble with whatever direction the PC's go in. This should mean that either (1) your planning goes to a great level of detail (by the time the idea to thwart the sahagin is in your mind, you have the stats of them, their commanders, the one sending them on the quest, and the creatures to come from the hellgate), or (2) your 'winging it' skills are great (you can open the page of the MM to Kraken, and your PHB to Sorcerer, and determine on-the-fly what the creature is capable of).

There Has to be a Point to the Journey: Getting from Point A to Point B is easy in a high-level game...unless there's a motive for taking the long way around, PC's generally wont' be inclined to do it. So make sure there is a motive. Maybe there's a monster they need to beat, an item they need to retrieve, and NPC they need to talk to. Maybe there is a path of breadcrumbs. Maybe they need to accompany a weaker group, or see a specific site. If there is something important to be found on the journey, it can happen normally.....just be prepared for them ending it quickly if things turn south. Being side-tracked doesn't happen in high-level play unless there's a dang good reason they can't go on the normal track, or a dang good carrot on the end of the side-track.

Sacrifice: More Than Just Life Because of the survivability of high-level characters, the sacrifice of one's life for a noble cause is not that big of a sacrifice....it's significant, but it's not insurmountable as it would be in low magic or low level campaigns. Coming back to life is just a friendly church away (this is, of course, a tie and an NPC group that can be targeted later), so other things need to be sacrificed. Items are more important to high-level characters, and getting rid of them is tougher...but intangibles are much better. The 'nessecary evils' can be devestating.....having to kill a popular baron is an intense sacrifice of everything the character has faught for over his career, even if the baron is wicked and turning the townsfolk undead, and they don't know it. The death of a trusted NPC ally is more weighty than an adventurer's death, because it's never a garuntee that an NPC will want to come back from the dead. Having to cut off your role in the aristocracy because you disagree with the policies of the emperor is a grand sacrifice, though no one must die for it (yet).

Use the Resources: Certain spells and effects become significantly less potent when they *need* to be used rather than just *can* be used. The monsters are desgned with this very concept in mind -- golems in particular. If the PC's cannot solve the mystery *without* Divination; if they cannot rescue the princess *without* reviving the long-lost king and his armada, if they *need* to hop between planes to achieve their goals, these stop becomeing powers and start becoming plot devices. Think of the most "abusive" spells in the game, and then create situations that mandate them. Use these to drain the PC's of their most "dangerous" resources. Even high-level characters can only plane shift so often before they run out. Whereas at low levels you may have nickel-and-dimed their food, at this level, you nickel-and-dime their first level spells. It's key in this to stop them from resting for too long....impose a time limit to keep spellcasters on their toes and none too potent.
 

S'mon

Legend
Boromir, of course, in the books was killed not by an artifact but by a horde of orc mooks armed with bows, although I guess the Ring did mess with his judgement!

Re Duncan MacLeod - he does seem like clearly the best Immortal duelist in the TV show, although relative power in the show is hard to judge, I don't think they're using a D&D type level system, it's more like BRP where a lucky strike can fell the greatest warrior. The movies were more d20-ish. :)

IMC deity-level PCs are often the best, but can still be challenged - eg Thrin, Lord of Swords (with a Wardpact against Swords) was terrified when he encountered a mortal opponent armed with a vorpal _battleaxe_. I definitely agree with those who say that you don't need to scale the world up as the PCs level in order to challenge them. Sometimes IMC the PCs face difficult challenges far _below_ their level, and still sweat it - eg 11th+ level PCs recently had to deal with a castle full of mostly 2nd-4th level NPCs, barely any challenge in a straight fight. However the PCs had to rescue a condemned prisoner, assassinate the enemy lord, defeat a conspiracy and instate the prisoner as the new lord of the castle, without killing anyone they weren't supposed to - it was a tough scenario to pull off without a general massacre and the players were very pleased when they managed it successfully.
 


I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I definitely agree with those who say that you don't need to scale the world up as the PCs level in order to challenge them. Sometimes IMC the PCs face difficult challenges far _below_ their level, and still sweat it - eg 11th+ level PCs recently had to deal with a castle full of mostly 2nd-4th level NPCs, barely any challenge in a straight fight. However the PCs had to rescue a condemned prisoner, assassinate the enemy lord, defeat a conspiracy and instate the prisoner as the new lord of the castle, without killing anyone they weren't supposed to - it was a tough scenario to pull off without a general massacre and the players were very pleased when they managed it successfully.

Which points out another great guideline of high-level gaming: "It Can't Be Solved with Violence." Though D&D in large part revolves around combat, high-level characters don't fight for survival (except against the Uber-beasts), they fight for goals. At higher level goals that are not simply killin', or that are killing with reprocussinos, become much more intriguing.
 

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