Khisanth the Ancient
Explorer
Why is a supervampire called a "welkin" anyway? "Welkin" means "sky".
Nosferatu and Wlekin template
It can also mean celestial sphere, cloud, or firmament. So...I dunno...
Krusty? Why is the Welkin called a Welkin?
Also...does anyone have the older version of Ascension? The one with the Thunderbird and Surtur and such? I don't have that one and I feel I'm missing out.
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Upper_Krust
Hero
Hey guys! 
Welkin is an occult term used to denote something thats "Everlasting".
That portion of the book was never completely finished, which was why I divided it from the main book. It was to be released as Gods & Monsters.
[MENTION=92658]eduar[/MENTION] regarding his templates...
You had the ability score bonuses correct, but the templates themselves don't add anything new. Plus they have all the old vampire abilities, many of which would probably be redundant (though in fairness I am sure I would have added most myself - it just looks a bit anaemic* when there's nothing new in there to balance it). It also isn't obvious what you are basing this monster on - its good to have a preconceived notion of what it is first.
*No pun intended.
So my basic advice would be:
1. Use a preconceived monster as inspiration for your idea.
2. Research as much as you can what you are writing about (for further inspiration).
3. Create 3 unique abilities for each template/monster.
Mr.Satan said:
Welkin is an occult term used to denote something thats "Everlasting".
That portion of the book was never completely finished, which was why I divided it from the main book. It was to be released as Gods & Monsters.
[MENTION=92658]eduar[/MENTION] regarding his templates...
You had the ability score bonuses correct, but the templates themselves don't add anything new. Plus they have all the old vampire abilities, many of which would probably be redundant (though in fairness I am sure I would have added most myself - it just looks a bit anaemic* when there's nothing new in there to balance it). It also isn't obvious what you are basing this monster on - its good to have a preconceived notion of what it is first.
*No pun intended.
So my basic advice would be:
1. Use a preconceived monster as inspiration for your idea.
2. Research as much as you can what you are writing about (for further inspiration).
3. Create 3 unique abilities for each template/monster.
Upper_Krust
Hero
eduar said:
Howdy eduar dude!
4. Try and keep it simple...although thats a problem endemic to all of 3E.
5. Watch the Hellsing anime (or other vampire anime).
While 4E is oversimplified and MMORPG-like, which is fine for some, but monumentally annoying to others.
Upper_Krust
Hero
Howdy Mr Satan!
Arguably. However simplicity is the key to good design. You only have to run an eye over the laundry list of abilities in eduar's templates (and some of my own IH:EB templates) to see when things can get out of hand.
I'd rather have a few unique, meaningful abilities than far too many that are all too easily obsolete.
The same design philosophy I used when instigating the artifact limit in 3.5.
Mr.Satan said:
Arguably. However simplicity is the key to good design. You only have to run an eye over the laundry list of abilities in eduar's templates (and some of my own IH:EB templates) to see when things can get out of hand.
I'd rather have a few unique, meaningful abilities than far too many that are all too easily obsolete.
The same design philosophy I used when instigating the artifact limit in 3.5.
Simplicity is not the key to good design. In fact, the best designs are more often than not the most complex ones. All anyone needs to do to realize this is to look at the majority of museum art pieces. Nearly all of them are possessed of a complexity that would boggle the lesser mind, yet still captivate it with their beauty.
Abilities in templates hardly become obsolete. Unless, of course, they are outpaced by similar, yet superior, abilities from overlapping templates. While they may see little use in COMBAT (more MMORPG thinking I'm seeing), they have a myriad of applicable uses in NON-combat scenarios (which is more for ROLE-playing than the ROLL-playing that is seen in 4E games).
Artifact limitations...I never did like that concept. It made very little sense to tie in equipment with a creature's challenge rating. Equipment can be lost or destroyed, even mimicked or replicated. Equipment is something anyone can acquire. It makes as much sense to limit artifacts as it does to add a Death Star (clearly a technological artifact) as a modifier to an individual's challenge rating. It's equipment and little more. Sure...it's symbolic equipment...but so was that +1 longsword your character got from his grandfather.
In my games I've found it best to simply award all divinities with extra divine ability slots equal to 1/3 their ECL and allow them to acquire artifacts separately. Artifacts are already limited enough by their difficult, expensive, and time consuming creation processes. So much so that it's unlikely for any given deity to even bother creating them and more likely that they will just steal them from existing deities that have them or encounter them as treasure.
Final note...
Simplicity typically seems best to those that are prone to laziness or procrastination or simply lack the time or attention span to do anything that requires more thorough deliberation. Simplicity is highly overrated and more often than not is simply someone cutting corners or seeking the easy way out. It has it's time and place and it doesn't belong in game design unless you're playing some variation of tic-tac-toe.
Not meaning to offend, but it has been proven time and time again.
Abilities in templates hardly become obsolete. Unless, of course, they are outpaced by similar, yet superior, abilities from overlapping templates. While they may see little use in COMBAT (more MMORPG thinking I'm seeing), they have a myriad of applicable uses in NON-combat scenarios (which is more for ROLE-playing than the ROLL-playing that is seen in 4E games).
Artifact limitations...I never did like that concept. It made very little sense to tie in equipment with a creature's challenge rating. Equipment can be lost or destroyed, even mimicked or replicated. Equipment is something anyone can acquire. It makes as much sense to limit artifacts as it does to add a Death Star (clearly a technological artifact) as a modifier to an individual's challenge rating. It's equipment and little more. Sure...it's symbolic equipment...but so was that +1 longsword your character got from his grandfather.
In my games I've found it best to simply award all divinities with extra divine ability slots equal to 1/3 their ECL and allow them to acquire artifacts separately. Artifacts are already limited enough by their difficult, expensive, and time consuming creation processes. So much so that it's unlikely for any given deity to even bother creating them and more likely that they will just steal them from existing deities that have them or encounter them as treasure.
Final note...
Simplicity typically seems best to those that are prone to laziness or procrastination or simply lack the time or attention span to do anything that requires more thorough deliberation. Simplicity is highly overrated and more often than not is simply someone cutting corners or seeking the easy way out. It has it's time and place and it doesn't belong in game design unless you're playing some variation of tic-tac-toe.
Not meaning to offend, but it has been proven time and time again.
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I couldn't care less about the edition war you guys seem to be sparking, but I do have some comments on a few of the points raised.
I never took the 4 artifact limit to be anything more than a suggestion, personally. I've always just used an ECL pool for equipment, applying it to as many or few items the character logically has (within the limits of the bonuses they're allowed to have) and then just converted the excess into either ability boosts or divine abilities. An ironclad limit of 4 artifacts always seemed kind of restrictive to me.
Not to mention that, at very high levels, one runs out of anything to put on their weapons and armor besides divine abilities (and cosmics, etc). It comes to a point where equipment essentially becomes nothing but divine abilities predicated on having the equipment in one's possession.
On simplicity versus detail... I think my 10-page First One write-ups speak to my stance on that. Then again, I design for my own pleasure, not for running in a game. (Hence me having no use for 4E whatsoever) It's the details that are important to me. Sure it might not come up in combat, but I'll be damned if Ysrahl doesn't have the ability to compel someone to speak the truth, etc.
And still related, the way I've always used the rules... I cut that 1/3 out of everyone's ECL to begin with, and then add in the equipment I want them to have, then total the ECL of their equipment and stack it on top. I find it to work much better, personally.
I never took the 4 artifact limit to be anything more than a suggestion, personally. I've always just used an ECL pool for equipment, applying it to as many or few items the character logically has (within the limits of the bonuses they're allowed to have) and then just converted the excess into either ability boosts or divine abilities. An ironclad limit of 4 artifacts always seemed kind of restrictive to me.
Not to mention that, at very high levels, one runs out of anything to put on their weapons and armor besides divine abilities (and cosmics, etc). It comes to a point where equipment essentially becomes nothing but divine abilities predicated on having the equipment in one's possession.
On simplicity versus detail... I think my 10-page First One write-ups speak to my stance on that. Then again, I design for my own pleasure, not for running in a game. (Hence me having no use for 4E whatsoever) It's the details that are important to me. Sure it might not come up in combat, but I'll be damned if Ysrahl doesn't have the ability to compel someone to speak the truth, etc.
And still related, the way I've always used the rules... I cut that 1/3 out of everyone's ECL to begin with, and then add in the equipment I want them to have, then total the ECL of their equipment and stack it on top. I find it to work much better, personally.
