NPC Classes?

[Anthtriel]

Also, does anyone think it's likely that WotC may eventually put out a 'low-powered heroes' splatbook (a later PHB, maybe), with classes and tips for people wanting to run more down-to-earth games without fantastically powered heroes? If WotC doesn't, I expect another published will, so if they were smart I'd think they'd try and cash in on the low-powered fan market.

Aren't heroic martial powers supposed to be rather mundane? They don't rely on magic (hence martial), and they are about what an Orc or an Ogre could do (hence heroic), they don't become fantastical just because they are called powers.

 

[Ovinnik]

I'm not sure what you mean about Profession vs. Classification. If you want to know his HP, AC, attack bonus, etc. I expect that'll be handled by the MM Table for "Soldiers: Levels 1 to 30." If you mean how many ranks in Craft (Knitting) he has, um, just give him as many as you want / as needed for your quest plot. The idea that you have to level up as a Soldier to get better at Crafts and Professions totally unrelated to soldiering is pretty dumb, if you think about it.

By profession I meant, a human who gets a job and training in a militia or some duke's military. By classification I meant the 'Monster Classes' Greenfaun mentioned... Soldier, Mastermind, etc. I'm really wondering, if a DM want a low-powered NPC soldier, or a pickpocket, or a merchant, or whatever, will there be MM or DMG templates for these things (which all you do is assign a race to and make slight modifications), or will it just be, like in the old days, the DM just assigns stats? I realize that there's no actual answer to that question yet (not that I've seen, at least). I'm kinda hoping for some rough guidelines, then just leave it up to the DM.

No, I don't think it's likely. I also don't think it's necessary. Just slow down level advancement and cap level progression at 10 (or whatever level you're comfortable with).

This might work, but some class abilities/techniques may still be a bit 'over the top' for grittier, less cinematic games, even among the Martial classes. WotC might be able to draw in some of the crowd who dislike the fantastical anime-inspired (whether or not anyone actually believe it's animeish or not) if they offered a sourcebook with some alternatives. But it might not be necessary, depending on how Martial classes 'feel' during the Heroic levels.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I hope this isn't a dumb question, but why would you ever need something like this? You only need rules for the parts of the game that have to be adjudicated by the DM, and you don't need adjudication for how good a local carpenter is. The DM can just tell you "He's competent" or "He's an artist; the best woodworker in the Kingdom even." I mean, is someone at the table actually going to say "Yeah? Prove it! Show me his ranks in Craft (Carpentry). How'd he advance that far without killing any Orcs?"

I realize you prefaced your comment with the phrase "for those who want it", but I'm really having a hard time understanding why anyone would want this. Whether your character lives or dies fighting Orcs is pretty important, but whether the local brewer can make Elven wine just seems like a "plot element", not something you need to roll for.

To be honest it is not for the game. I DM so I make the worlds and modify the rules. What I like 3E NPC classes for, and why I would like this sort of supplement, is not to make me a better DM or the game sessions better. It is because I like, outside of the game, to have DM verisimilitude. A weird concept, I know. But I like to have a feeling that my world could be real and work, within the rules of the game. So I am not gutted when I don't get this sort of thing but it is nice for my personal DM well-being and mental calm to have it there.
So in my 3E, you can gain experience points by doing what you do. Ie if a wizard stays in his tower, conducts magical experiments and never adventures (a stable fantasy trope) then he will gain levels. If a fighter trains 10 hours, 7 days a week, he will gain levels. If a carpenter 'carpents' he will gain levels (although my NPC classes don't gain HP or BAB unless they train militarily). However the QUICKEST way to gain XP is to adventure. To get to level 10 you'd be in your 50's.
I also changed the aging of non-humans as well b4 you ask, I've always hated that even without my little house rule

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Just because there likely isn't NPC classes doesn't mean there's not DM guidelines for creating NPCs... they are just likely to work the way the monsters do, rather than the PC's.

For instance, I exoect if you like your "versimilitude" you can just follow the guidelines for keeping the merchant's skills, defences, HP, etc, within the confines of his level.

That said, I doubt every little point here and there will make any difference, but I expect you won't be able to say "He's got +20 to his Diplomacy!" witout at least making him a high level encounter.

Fitz

 

[Jdvn1]

I can't be the only GM who fudges stats for commoner NPCs. Most of the time, it ends up not mattering, or you can estimate how good they'd be at something.

I wouldn't be shocked if they merely had NPC "guidelines."

 

[Lizard]

I realize you prefaced your comment with the phrase "for those who want it", but I'm really having a hard time understanding why anyone would want this. Whether your character lives or dies fighting Orcs is pretty important, but whether the local brewer can make Elven wine just seems like a "plot element", not something you need to roll for.

Several reasons:
a)Craft/Profession type skills can be taken by players, and it's often important to know how well they did. Handwaving it is irksome and sends the message "This aspect of your character doesn't mean anything." If you can just write "I am a blacksmith" on your character sheet and always succeed in smithing (no matter the task), then why not write "I am a dragonslayer" on your sheet and always succeed in killing dragons?

b)I like knowing rough demographics for the world. If I know it's a DC of Y to make a masterwork whatsis, and that you need to be a 4th level Expert to reliably hit that, and a small hamlet has no one over 2nd level, then the PCs will be very unlikely to find someone who can make said whatsis. And because I like fully-statted NPCs. And because sometimes it's fun to let the dice shape the story. "Well, you brought your armor to the smith to be fixed, but he sort of rolled a one, and now you're stuck in town for a while." Further, many other NPC skills will matter -- do the PCs need a gem carved for a ritual? Can the town jeweler really do it, or will they need to head for a larger city or hunt down a rare master craftsman? How about identifying an ancient scroll -- how good IS that sage, anyway? Is the town farrier capable of shoeing a hippogryff? Etc, etc, etc. I admit to being pretty simulationist, and even if I don't write up each and every minor NPC in every village (I don't), I like having good guidelines for quickly determining how good someone is at their profession and how talented the most talented person in a town of size X is likely to be. If I wanted to make every decision based purely on plot, I'd run Amber or Theatrix. (Assuming a base +2 attribute bonus, Trained, and Skill Focus in 4e gives me a +12 'Profession' skill for Joe Average. The only way I can see to get beyond that, though, is by class levels, and that means some kind of NPC classes. (This also seriously limits the mechanical variability of all non-adventurers, as they blow their 1st level feat on their profession skill all the time.) I'd be happy with 5-level classes for 'Commoner', 'Professionals', and 'Soldiers'; I don't need 20th level farmers.)

Addendum: Also on demographics, if there's only 1 'master class' crafter in a town of size X, that means he can't be a smith, a sage, a baker, a butcher, and a candlestick maker. So knowing how many people of 'expert' or 'master' skill there might be in a town lets you know the liklihood of there being one who is skilled in the field you need -- and if the best crafter in the town isn't a smith, then knowing how good the town smith is (assuming he's one of the lower level crafters) is also useful.

 

[Betote]

I hope this isn't a dumb question, but why would you ever need something like this? You only need rules for the parts of the game that have to be adjudicated by the DM, and you don't need adjudication for how good a local carpenter is. The DM can just tell you "He's competent" or "He's an artist; the best woodworker in the Kingdom even." I mean, is someone at the table actually going to say "Yeah? Prove it! Show me his ranks in Craft (Carpentry). How'd he advance that far without killing any Orcs?"

A raiding horde from the Temple of Elemental Evil is approaching Fairhill. The PCs know what they did on Hommlet and they're trying to organize a village militia. The village smith is trying to craft as much suits of armor as he can. How many will he be able to make in 4 days? And what if the dwarf wants to help him? Will his young days in the mines be of any use?

Of course a DM could handwave this but, for some of us, that kind of information can be very helpful.

 

[Novem5er]

I think there needs to be some sort of mechanic to handle low level, NPC spell casting. It's nice if a village temple has a servant of the gods who can actually cast minor divine magic. Also, it would be great if villages had a local sage/herbalist who was knowledgeable in the arcane arts.

If the PCs are supposed to be special, but the world more fantastic, then there needs to be a bridge between the two. NPC spellcasting classes filled that roll in 3e, so I think something is needed for 4e.

On that note, I would love to see a list of "utility" spells included in the DMG. These would be common spells that would impact every day life, but wouldn't be useful in an adventuring situation. Maybe these could be low-level rituals.

Some Divine examples:

Bless the Crops - gives disease resistance and an extra 10% yield to the harvest.
Cure Illness - like Cure Disease, but for the sniffles as opposed to Mummy Rot
Purify Water - already a spell in old editions, but seems useful for a village.
Read the Stars - astrological bonus to some community effort
Bestow Child - a wedding ritual that gives bonus to baby-making

Some Arcane examples (similar to 0 level spells):
Pyrotechnics - make fires spark and flare with colors
Light the Wick - Instantly lights candles, torches, hearths
Ghost Hand - small objects float to your hand when commanded (use the force!)
Mend Object - repair broken mundane objects

Minor spell like these, available to NPCs, would help the D&D world seem more fantastic without filling it with 1st level adventurers or retired heros. 3e's Adepts and Magewrights fit this bill.... but I always felt something was a little off with them. What's the point of a 20th level Adept? Wouldn't a 20th level Magewright eventually just become a wizard?

I'd like a single stat block each NPC class; maybe an apprentice and a master, which could be customized by a DM if wanted. Just list average stats, a single set of combat stats, standard skills w/ points already added, and a list of spells/powers.

If Thurgood, the Master Blacksmith, is the best smith in 100 miles, then as a DM I'll just give him a +5 to his Craft skill. No need for me to add levels, calculate BaB, HP, individual skill points, etc, etc.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Minor spell like these, available to NPCs, would help the D&D world seem more fantastic without filling it with 1st level adventurers or retired heros. 3e's Adepts and Magewrights fit this bill.... but I always felt something was a little off with them. What's the point of a 20th level Adept? Wouldn't a 20th level Magewright eventually just become a wizard?

I use this sort of thing, max level in commoner 5, they then become an expert, expert max level 10 (but able to have 1+INT bonus skills max ranks 3+2xExpert level), aristocrat max ranks 10 (then they become ftrs/experts/or whatever- most multiclass tho), warrior max rank 5 then they become ftr/rgr/barb.. by the time they have done 5 levels of fighting they must be good.....a 20th level commoner or warrior?.. where is my DM verisimilitude!

 

[Jdvn1]

A raiding horde from the Temple of Elemental Evil is approaching Fairhill. The PCs know what they did on Hommlet and they're trying to organize a village militia. The village smith is trying to craft as much suits of armor as he can. How many will he be able to make in 4 days? And what if the dwarf wants to help him? Will his young days in the mines be of any use?

Depends, how skilled a smith are they? 4e critters look like, so far, they're not very static. You take a creature (or race, in this case), determine how powerful you want him to be, extrapolate the skills you need for crafting based on power level (remember skill level rises with level), and you have your skill modifier.

The situation is also easily resolved in 3.5 without classes at all. I may figure my smithing NPC is a level 2 character who is good at smithing. He must have whatever skill it'd be as a class skill, so his max skill ranks at level 2 is 5 ranks, which he'd max out due it being his profession. Since he decided to be a smith, I think he should have an above average related stat for smithing--whatever that stat is--so I'll give him a +2 stat modifier. He's working in his shop with good quality tools, an extra +2, and has a help assisting him, another +2.

Therefore, my 3.5 level 2 smith's check is 5+2+2+2=11. I used no class, and didn't have to stat out anything. If I decide he shouldn't have access to good quality tools, or that his stats aren't really that great, I'd drop a +2 or lower his stat mod to +1. I don't need an NPC class to tell me anything.

For "how many can he make in four days?" you may need crafting rules, but not NPC classes.