NPCs created as PCs

[HealingAura]

I am thinking of creating a group of NPCs to fight the group of PCs, and create them as PCs.
They are supposed to be some sort of adventurers or merceneries and with power appropriate to the levels of the PCs.

Have any of you ever tried making a group of antiheroes in your campaign? What do you think about it in general?
Is it too complex to have a fight between two groups of "PCs"?

I think it would be fun to check out some races and classes that the players didn't choose, especially if the opposing group is supposed to be like a mirror image of the adventuring party (like here).

The current group of PCs is:
- Female Tiefling Wizard
- Male Elf Ranger (archer)
- Male Halfling Rogue
- Male Dragonborn Paladin
- Male Dwarf Cleric

They are all levels 4-5.

I would appriciate any tips or suggestions for the antiheroes.

 

[Mengu]

It depends on how difficult of an encounter you want to set up. An NPC with a class template is about the equivalent of an elite. Setting up 5 of them against a 5 man party could be a potentially lethal encounter (about level+4). It's also extremely time consuming for a DM to create 5 PC's who are meant to just die after one encounter.

I would stat out a group of antiheroes just like any other monster. This would give me much more flexibility in adjusting the difficulty of the encounter. I'd probably set it up to be a level+2 or level+3 encounter. I'd basically make a level+4 controller (leader) to be the leader of the group, a level+2 elite soldier, a level+2 brute, a level+1 artillery and and a level+1 skirmisher. That should be about a level+3 encounter which is still quite dangerous. I'd make sure the party has reached one milestone through 2 relatively easy encounters before encountering this party so they still have all their dailies and 2 daily magic item uses.

This wouldn't be exactly a mirror party because I included a brute instead of another controller, but the brute could be skinned similar to a counterpart of the tiefling wizard via some melee range magic attacks and a magical protective shield to represent the brute level hit points. You can describe the magic shield as weakening as the brute takes hits.

The players won't really care about the mechanics of how you created the NPC's, all you need to do is describe the foes as they appear, and the PC's will be immersed in the illusion of fighting a mirror party.

 

[James McMurray]

I've done it. The NPCs weren't too complicated, though one of them barely got to use any powers because she was dropped so fast. Ifg you do it, don't have a lot of other monsters in the encounter. When I ran it the NPCs were lower level then the PCs and backed up by a bunch of other creatures (including 24 minions). That was definitely too complicated.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Unless it's the only encounter in a day, they may be overpowered, as they get dailies too, and only have one encounter to spend them in (before running away and dying, usually).

Speaking of which...

The DMG rules for making classed NPCs are so poorly done. Either that, or WotC doesn't follow their own rules. The death knights in the MM seem to have lost their dailies (the 25th-level one should get two of them).

 

[DracoSuave]

That's because the monsters in the monster manual -don't- use class rules.

They flat out admit it. They even suggest you don't do so for run-of-the-mill monsters.

It's good advice too.

 

[Anguirus]

I was preparing an encounter of this sort in 3.5, but I never got to run it.

Are the PCs meant to conclusively win this fight? Or is it supposed to grind to a bloody stalemate, with the Linear Guild here running off swearing revenge?

If the former, use the NPC rules and create five level X monsters of the appropriate classes and races.

If the latter, you can make full PCs, but I'd actually recommend creating custom "monsters" to do what you like and then applying the NPC class templates to make them Elites. If you are running a group of five "PC" NPCs, either you will be slaughtered because it's too hard to keep track of their various dailies, utilities, APs, etc., or you will create a very tough challenge if you are running them at their full potential. A group of five Elites, on the other hand, can soak a lot of damage but will be a bit more "conventional" to run.

I guess the moral of this post is, I dunno really. See what happens, and tell us about it!

Now, as for specific suggestions for your antiheroes?
Hmm...how about an Evil Dragonborn Paladin of Tiamat (opposite breath weapon), a Dwarf Hammer-Throwing Ranger (aka "the dwarven bow"), a Kobold Rogue (in the spirit of Yikyik), a Hobgoblin Warlock (opposite of a Dwarf Cleric...his least favorite race and the most blasphemous class), and a Deva Wizard?

 

[Derulbaskul]

That's because the monsters in the monster manual -don't- use class rules. (snip)

Out of interest, do the monsters in the Monster Manual use the same rules in DMG for creating monsters?

 

[DracoSuave]

More or less, tho exceptions exist. (as they should, the DMG rules are guidelines, really, but sometimes you just gotta deviate)

 

[LostSoul]

The cool thing about creating monsters is that you can give them all sorts of neat powers - whatever you can imagine.

NPCs created via the PC rules have to follow the PC rules and that's not as much fun.

Imagine a guy with a whip:
He uses it to trip at range. ranged: Ranged 3; Standard; At-Will; Dex vs. Ref; Hit: med damage and the target is prone.)
He also can tie you up with it. ranged: Ranged 3; Standard; At-Will; Dex vs. Ref; Hit: low damage and the target is restrained.)
He can drag you around with it. ranged: Ranged 3; Minor; At-Will; Restrained targets only; Dex vs. Ref; Hit: Slide 3.)
And he snatch your weapon out of your hand! ranged: Ranged 3; Standard; Encounter; Dex vs. Ref; Hit: disarmed and the weapon is in the whipmaster's hand.)
And when he's cornered, he lashes out like crazy. close: Close Blast 1; Immediate Reaction; When first bloodied; Dex vs. Ref; Hit: low damage.)

This guy is a Controller.

Imagine a guy with a spear:
He can stab you. bmelee: Standard; At-Will; Str vs. AC; Hit: med damage.)
He can trip you with it and follow up with a wicked stab, pinning you to the ground! melee: Standard; At-Will; Str vs. AC; Hit: med damage and the target is prone. Make a secondary attack. Str vs. Ref; Hit: med damage and the target is Restrained.)
When he's surrounded, he makes space, stabbing the guy in front of him and bashing the guy behind him with the butt of his spear. close: Close Burst 1; Immediate Reaction; When flanked; Str vs. AC; Hit: low damage and Push 1.)


Making up cool NPCs like this is really easy and a lot of fun.

 

[arscott]

The opening scene in my first campaign was a heroes vs. antiheroes arena match.

It didn't really work out, and I'm still not sure how much of that was due to player inexperience vs. the toughness of the NPC rules (particularly at first level--between dailies and the universal +1 bonus, those guys were pretty tough)

By 5th level, I think your PCs will have gained enough of an edge that they'd do well in a fight.

As for suggestions:

- Female Tiefling Wizard

The Human Mage from the MM provides an easy opposite. Alternately, if your mage focuses on a certain element, perhaps make a mage that focuses on the opposite element. Or, if you can wait for the PHB2 (and fake it until then) consider a Deva Envoker--And angelic divine controller to contrast the demonic arcane controller.

- Male Elf Ranger (archer)

MM, the Hobgoblin Archer and the Dwarf Bolter seem like potential opposites. NPC-wise, a Drow or an Orc might work. If your ranger is particularly nature-focused, consider a character that epitomizes technology, such as a warforged.

- Male Halfling Rogue

MM, the Dark Creeper, Kobold Slyblade, and Halfling Prowler seem to be your best bets, or an NPC Kobold, Halfling, or Gnome if you're going that route.

- Male Dragonborn Paladin

MM, the Dragonborn Soldier or gnoll marauder. NPC-wise, either a fighter or a Necrotic-for-radiant swapped paladin, of some vaguely monstrous race.

- Male Dwarf Cleric

The MM is pretty light on cleric types--the Orc Eye of Gruumsh seems like the closest opposite. Alternately, You caould make up some kind of Primorial-worshipping cultist (Human and Genasi seem like the most obvious player races for such a character)