Number of grapple checks for animal

[Olorin]

I think this is pretty straightforward but I just wanted to confirm.

Dire Bear with 3 attacks (claw, claw, bite) and Improved Grab.

Bear does full attack. Hits with claw, does claw damage, gets free grab attempt, wins grapple check. Target is drawn into bear's space, no extra damage done.

Can the bear then make two more grapple checks for the remaining two attacks (using the Damage Your Opponent grapple action)? If the checks are successful, he does the appropriate damage for each natural weapon?

And on subsequent rounds assuming the target doesn't break free on his action, he can make 3 grapple checks, doing damage for each one that succeeds?

Thanks for the help.

 

[reapersaurus]

It's funny that you mention this, because I have almost posted this same question multiple times thru the years, but stopped myself each time.

AFAIK the # of Grapple checks does not necessarily equal the # of natural attacks.

So I believe that by the book, the bear would have a +9/+4 BAB, so he'd have 2 grapple attempts.
However, if he gets a grapple, he can use his natural weapons as attack still.
Or he could grapple once, and do 2 natural attacks.
Or next round, if still grappling, do 3 natural attacks (forgetting about the Do Damage To Opponent action).

So there's a lot of crossover between the 2 attacks.
It always hurts my head when I try to marry the 2 when and if they are used in the same attack sequence.
For example, what if the bear grapples twice, then uses 1 claw to do a normal attack?
I really don't think the rules covers examples like that.
Or if the bear is a monk and he does a flurry of blows....

 

[Thanee]

Note, that natural weapons can still be used as normal during a grapple, so the bear can just bite and claw away. (EDIT: not exactly as normal, since you take a -4 penalty to attack while in a grapple.)

I'd probably allow grapple checks only with attacks that lead to a grapple (i.e. in the bear's case, the claws but not the bite).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Quez The Lame]

He has a free grapple attempt per claw hit. Two claw hits give him two chances to initiate a grapple. Hitting with the bite attack is fine for dealing damage, but the bear can't use it's improved grab ability with it.

 

[youspoonybard]

In a grapple, everyone gets one attack per 5 bab. I don't know if Monks can flurry in a grapple.

Natural weapons are light, and so can be used at a -4 penalty in the grapple. No grapple check needed. So the bear could claw or bite at a -4 penalty.

 

[Olorin]

In a grapple, everyone gets one attack per 5 bab. I don't know if Monks can flurry in a grapple.

Natural weapons are light, and so can be used at a -4 penalty in the grapple. No grapple check needed. So the bear could claw or bite at a -4 penalty.

Ah ok, I didn't read "Attack Your Opponent" carefully enough I guess

Would the bear get all three attacks with the -4 penalty, or just two solely based on his BAB (+9/+4)?

 

[youspoonybard]

If the bear has a BAB of +9, he has two grapple "attacks" which can be used to try and perform any of the grapple techniques.

If he was using the "Attack your Opponent" technique, his attacks would be at +5 for the first attempt, and +0 for the second attempt (Plus str and what not). After doing so, he is out of grapple attacks and can't do anything else.

If he was using the "Damage your Opponent" technique, or some other technique that requires a Grapple check, your first attempt will be at your full grapple check, and your second will be at your grapple check -5.

You can mix and match, too. You could attempt to Damage your Opponent using a grapple check, then attack with your claw at a -9 penalty (-4 for being in the grapple, -5 for being the second attack).

Clear?

 

[Olorin]

If the bear has a BAB of +9, he has two grapple "attacks" which can be used to try and perform any of the grapple techniques.

If he was using the "Attack your Opponent" technique, his attacks would be at +5 for the first attempt, and +0 for the second attempt (Plus str and what not). After doing so, he is out of grapple attacks and can't do anything else.

If he was using the "Damage your Opponent" technique, or some other technique that requires a Grapple check, your first attempt will be at your full grapple check, and your second will be at your grapple check -5.

You can mix and match, too. You could attempt to Damage your Opponent using a grapple check, then attack with your claw at a -9 penalty (-4 for being in the grapple, -5 for being the second attack).

Clear?

I think so... reading the description for Improved Grab brings up another question:

"If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold."


First round: So the bear hits with a claw, does damage and wins a grapple check, establishing a hold.
First question, normally during a full attack the bear would have another claw and a bite. Does he still get those (at -4)? Or is he now in "grapple mode" and can only do one more "Attack Your Opponent" grapple action? What if he didn't establish a hold on the first claw, but did on the second? Can he still bite (at -4)?

In subsequent rounds, he does a grapple check for the claw that established the hold and if he wins, he does the claw damage. Does that grapple check come out of his regular two grapple actions? Or is it something he gets somewhat for free because he has Improved Grab?

Sorry if it seems like I'm asking silly questions, but the relation between a creature's natural attacks and their BAB has always confused me a bit, and throw in grappling and it gets even murkier.

 

[youspoonybard]

Normally, when you try and start a grapple, you do the AoO, touch attack, then the grapple check. If the grapple check hits, you deal some damage (Unarmed Strike damage, specifically).

When you do an Improved Grab, however, you attack with, say, a claw. If the claw hits, it deals damage normally. Then, the creature can decide if it wants to grapple the guy or not. If he does, he rolls his opposed grapple check, and if he wins, the opponent is grappled. No more damage is done.

If the creature has Improved Grab and Constrict, see the above example and add a final step: after the opponent is successfully grappled, he also takes constrict damage.

In the first round, it depends whether or not he decides to take that -20 to his grapple check to be considered Grappling or not. If he conducts the grapple normally, he's in a grapple, and I'm pretty sure he forfeits all of this remaining attacks this round. If he takes the -20 penalty, he's not considered grappled, and he can make the rest of his attacks (Claw, Bite) against other opponents. He can "grapple" his opponent with the claw attack every round, leaving the other 2 attacks for other people.


WARNING: There is some debate as to what happens in following rounds.

I am of the party that says that when you win an opposed grapple check during your turn, you do whatever you were trying to do with that opposed check (like, pin an opponent, or "damage your opponent") as well as doing Improved Grab damage. If you have constrict, you ALSO do constrict damage.

Note that there is debate over this though.

Hope I'm helping you here!

 

[Olorin]

The Doctor says I'm only allowed to answer questions about the first turn of an improved grab question.

Normally, when you try and start a grapple, you do the AoO, touch attack, then the grapple check. If the grapple check hits, you deal some damage (Unarmed Strike damage, specifically).

When you do an Improved Grab, however, you attack with, say, a claw. If the claw hits, it deals damage normally. Then, the creature can decide if it wants to grapple the guy or not. If he does, he rolls his opposed grapple check, and if he wins, the opponent is grappled. No more damage is done.

If the creature has Improved Grab and Constrict, see the above example and add a final step: after the opponent is successfully grappled, he also takes constrict damage.

Hope I'm helping you here!

Yep, I've got all that... totally understand how Improved Grab works. My first question above was what happens to the remaining attacks the bear would normally get as part of a full attack. Or if the grab happened on the second claw, would it still get a bite? (Claw 1 hits, grab unsuccessful; Claw 2 hits, grab succeeds; ?).