Level Up (A5E) O5E Banishment Spell vs A5e

[noodohs]

I already made edits to correct some mistakes, but you can't just add "doesn't" in there to adjust the meaning. As written, there are a couple implications that are valid interpretations. 1) There is no indication as to what happens if the spell does not end early and the creature is not native to a different plane, so given that the only guidance says that a creature does not return, as written even creatures native to the current plane could be banished permanently; 2) What happens if it ends early and the creature is native to another plane? Again not specified, again the only guidance is that they don't return so I could see someone arguing that is always the case.

A much better wording would be: "When the spell ends, the target reappears in the space it left (or the nearest unoccupied space)." There is no need to specify ending early in this instance since the intent (I believe) is that they return either way. End sentence, then start a new one: "If the target is native to another plane, it remains there after the spell ends. If the spell ends early, it reappears in the space it left (or the nearest unoccupied space)." Or something similar, I'm spitballing here. I think this is the intention and this makes it far clearer.

I think what happened is they copy and pasted o5e's spells, modified it, and then forgot to clean it up to actually make sense again after. Understandable, but it needs work.

 

[Distracted DM]

It's definitely a bit confusing, I'd have thought upcasting it would make it take longer to permanently banish an Outsider (but also mean that you can keep a native "away" for longer)- but note that a creature passing the save doesn't end the spell. You can see this from the rare version, which makes the target vulnerable to cold etc. so even if they pass, they're still debuffed while the spell lasts.

 

[xiphumor]

It's definitely a bit confusing, I'd have thought upcasting it would make it take longer to permanently banish an Outsider (but also mean that you can keep a native "away" for longer)- but note that a creature passing the save doesn't end the spell. You can see this from the rare version, which makes the target vulnerable to cold etc. so even if they pass, they're still debuffed while the spell lasts.

Have we considered that maybe the target should repeat the saving throw every turn, and be re-banished on a failure? This would also make an extended duration a somewhat logical thing to want if you were trying to permanently banish an extraplanar creature, because if they came back, you’d still have more chances to rebanish them again before the end of the spell. Granted, the spell doesn’t exactly state this, but it could be a reasonable fix.

And I’ll back up that the spell doesn’t end when the creature returns. Every other spell with a similar chance to repeat the save (such as fear) specifies that the spell ends, but banishment just says the creature is returned.

 

[TheDungeonMathster]

Parsing the language of the banishment spell, there are two possible ambiguities; however, deeper investigation reveals that both are non-issues.

The lack of the phrase, "ending the spell’s effects on it on a successful save" definitely seems to be causing ambiguities. When taken as part of a whole in regards to how spells are designed and written, this missing phrase implies that the spell continues to operate even after the saving throw is made. However, if we assume the spell continues to operate, what does that mean? If the target of the spell initially makes its saving throw, it is not banished. The fact that the spell continues to operate doesn't matter because the phrase, "At the end of each of its turns, a banished creature can repeat the saving throw..." The creature not being banished means there are no other effects. The same is true if a creature initially fails its save, then subsequently makes its save in a future round. Thus, once the creature is "unbanished," this spell has no lingering effects (unless using the rare version of the spell).

The other "ambiguity" is due to poor wording. "If the spell ends before its maximum duration, the target reappears in the space it left (or the nearest unoccupied space) but otherwise a target native to a different plane doesn’t return." That language, "but otherwise" in the middle of that last sentence implies, "If the spell lasts until its maximum duration, a target native to a different plane doesn't return."

 

[Stalker0]

I do think banishment was one of the "overnerfed" spells in A5e

 

[xiphumor]

I do think banishment was one of the "overnerfed" spells in A5e

I did the math for how likely a target is to ultimately escape before the spell’s full duration assuming different initial chances to escape, recalling that a 20 is a critical success.

Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Round 5	Round 6
5	9.75	14.2625	18.549375	22.62190625	26.49081094
10	14.5	18.775	22.83625	26.6944375	30.35971563
15	23.5	27.325	30.95875	34.4108125	37.69027188
20	32	38.8	41.86	44.767	47.52865
25	40	49	54.1	56.395	58.57525
30	47.5	58	64.3	67.87	69.4765
35	54.5	65.875	72.7	76.795	79.1155
40	61	72.7	79.525	83.62	86.077
45	67	78.55	84.985	88.73875	90.991
50	72.5	83.5	89.275	92.4925	94.369375
55	77.5	87.625	92.575	95.17375	96.621625
60	82	91	95.05	97.03	98.0695

 

[TheDungeonMathster]

I did the math for how likely a target is to ultimately escape before the spell’s full duration assuming different initial chances to escape, recalling that a 20 is a critical success.

Round 1	Round 2	Round 3	Round 4	Round 5	Round 6
5	9.75	14.2625	18.549375	22.62190625	26.49081094
10	14.5	18.775	22.83625	26.6944375	30.35971563
15	23.5	27.325	30.95875	34.4108125	37.69027188
20	32	38.8	41.86	44.767	47.52865
25	40	49	54.1	56.395	58.57525
30	47.5	58	64.3	67.87	69.4765
35	54.5	65.875	72.7	76.795	79.1155
40	61	72.7	79.525	83.62	86.077
45	67	78.55	84.985	88.73875	90.991
50	72.5	83.5	89.275	92.4925	94.369375
55	77.5	87.625	92.575	95.17375	96.621625
60	82	91	95.05	97.03	98.0695

Sorry, what rolls do each row represent?

 

[xiphumor]

Sorry, what rolls do each row represent?

So rounds 1 and 2 are just part of the math, but because the minimum number of rounds is 1d4 + 1, the Round 3 column represents the probability that the target won’t be banished for the full duration of the spell if it lasts its minimum duration, assuming it’s initial chance of succeeding against the first save was the percentage in the round 1 column. Every column past round 1 represents the odds of it escaping by the end if it has an additional chance.

 

[Stalker0]

So rounds 1 and 2 are just part of the math, but because the minimum number of rounds is 1d4 + 1, the Round 3 column represents the probability that the target won’t be banished for the full duration of the spell if it lasts its minimum duration, assuming it’s initial chance of succeeding against the first save was the percentage in the round 1 column. Every column past round 1 represents the odds of it escaping by the end if it has an additional chance.

Keep in mind that you do have to remake the save every round (after round 1 and 2 as well), so there is a solid chance the creature will escape the effect in those early rounds.

so its a bit more than "just part of the math"

 

[FletcherHubbard]

On the spell comparison document posted on this forum, it lists the changes to banishment as follows:

Banishment (4). Concentration random duration, target save per round with penalty, higher level increase duration instead of targets.

I sent this to one of my players and he had some salient points:
Nox Vidmate VLC
I am curious about others thoughts on this. Did they weaken banishment too much or is there a thoughtful argument as to the design choices?

The upcast seems ok, as I find targeting more than one person with a powerfull spell like that a bit overpowered. Not sure about point II though.