OAt vs OAc w/MBA - and push/pull/slide vs foes

[Fkewl]

Hi all,

A few questions

1.
Take this power by example : Mindlike Strike
"One ally adjacent to you can make a MBA against the target as an opportunity action. On a hit, ...

Now -> is opportunity action making a MBA an Opportunity Attack (thus, all OA feats/powers/bonuses apply) or not?

2.
5 foot wide , 25 foot long corridor
2 foes, one behind the other, advance towards my Ardent
Morthos strike the first foe with a power that pushes the foe back 4 squares
but the foe has his ally right behind him

Does the foe
-> stop in the square before his ally, going nowhere?
-> fly through 4 squares, landing behind his ally?

 

[mudlock]

1. No, sorry.

"Opportunity attack" is one of the "default attack powers"; it is an opportunity action that lets you make a MBA. If you have another power which /also/ happens to be an opportunity action which lets you make an MBA, that power is NOT that same as "opportunity attack". (Check the rules compendium, p. 215 and 246.)

2. There are several threads debating it, but I think the RAW consensus favored "you can move through your allies, therefore you can BE MOVED through your allies."

 

[twilsemail]

2.
5 foot wide , 25 foot long corridor
2 foes, one behind the other, advance towards my Ardent
Morthos strike the first foe with a power that pushes the foe back 4 squares
but the foe has his ally right behind him

Does the foe
-> stop in the square before his ally, going nowhere?
-> fly through 4 squares, landing behind his ally?

Mudlock said everything I would have on #1.

On #2, keep in mind that enemies have distinctly separate actions. If Enemy #1 is moving down the hallway, enemy #2 is still at the end.

For the sake of the discussion though, you can move through an allies square. You can be moved through any square you could normally move through yourself. Therefore the enemy can be pushed through their allies square and beyond.

 

[Ferghis]

1
Take this power by example : Mindlike Strike
"One ally adjacent to you can make a MBA against the target as an opportunity action. On a hit, ...

Now -> is opportunity action making a MBA an Opportunity Attack (thus, all OA feats/powers/bonuses apply) or not?

1. No, sorry.

"Opportunity attack" is one of the "default attack powers"; it is an opportunity action that lets you make a MBA. If you have another power which /also/ happens to be an opportunity action which lets you make an MBA, that power is NOT that same as "opportunity attack". (Check the rules compendium, p. 215 and 246.)

I don't understand. Opportunity action is a type of action, and that's the extend to which I'm clear about this. I've read both the cited sections in the Compendium and all they say is that an Opportunity Attack is an Opportunity Action that allows you to make an MBA. The power referred is titled "Opportunity Attack." That makes me think that this is the only thing that can be called an opportunity attack.

But the text immediately before the power is actually pretty loose: "Triggering this power is usually referred to as making an opportunity attack." The term usually can imply two different things. Either there are other ways to refer to triggering that power or there are other things that can be referred to as an opportunity attack.

I lean towards agreeing with you, but I don't see anything that makes me feel as sure about it as you sound. Can you, in any way, further buttress your argument? I'm wondering, for example, if an attack power - other than the above-referenced Opportunity Attack - that costs an opportunity action would trigger the property of a Warding Blade ("Property: While you wield this weapon in your off hand, you gain an item bonus to AC against opportunity attacks equal to the blade’s enhancement bonus.") wielded by the target. I'm inclined to say it does, albeit mostly out of a general sense of fairness. Why would you say it does not?

 

[Fkewl]

Thx !

I was confused when seeing :

"Opportunity Attack : opportunity action granting an mba "
and I had an "Opportunity action granting an mba"

After reading page 246, I saw that an OA has a specific trigger (that's where it's different)

Opportunity Attack is a opportunity action granting a MBA (with the following trigger : foe leaves a squares adjacent or makes a ranged attack)

So, another Opportunity Action (even if it grants an MBA) is not an Opportunity Attack because it does have the trigger.

phew..

And for #2, that's my interpretation too, but my DM reasons that foes would stop their allies from going anywhere. It's the same rule for monsters push/pull PC's.

But it removes a lot of usefulness in push/pull powers for players and DM's

 

[DracoSuave]

I don't understand. Opportunity action is a type of action, and that's the extend to which I'm clear about this. I've read both the cited sections in the Compendium and all they say is that an Opportunity Attack is an Opportunity Action that allows you to make an MBA. The power referred is titled "Opportunity Attack." That makes me think that this is the only thing that can be called an opportunity attack.

But the text immediately before the power is actually pretty loose: "Triggering this power is usually referred to as making an opportunity attack." The term usually can imply two different things. Either there are other ways to refer to triggering that power or there are other things that can be referred to as an opportunity attack.

I lean towards agreeing with you, but I don't see anything that makes me feel as sure about it as you sound. Can you, in any way, further buttress your argument? I'm wondering, for example, if an attack power - other than the above-referenced Opportunity Attack - that costs an opportunity action would trigger the property of a Warding Blade ("Property: While you wield this weapon in your off hand, you gain an item bonus to AC against opportunity attacks equal to the blade’s enhancement bonus.") wielded by the target. I'm inclined to say it does, albeit mostly out of a general sense of fairness. Why would you say it does not?

Well, because Opportunity Attack refers explicitly to a specific game element. It's a power that all individuals possess. Making a Melee Basic Attack as an Opportunity Action is not using that power, even tho it has the same fundamental effect.

Another example of this principle is the difference between, off the top of my head... Strength of Stone (warden), and Dominating Strike (blackguard). Both are strength based attacks that give temporary hps, but feats that specifically modify one cannot modify the other, even tho they obstensibly have the same results. (yes, I know one uses Con and the other Cha, but bear with me here)

Having the same results is not the same as being the same effect.

On top of this, opportunity attack has an explicit trigger, and only occurs in certain scenarios. A power that allows an attack as an opportunity action has no real trigger... it just happens when the ability that grants it says it happens.

Some powers ARE intended to be used as opportunity attacks, and those powers explicitly say so. 'This power may be used in an opportunity attack.' The way those powers work tho, is they replace the melee basic attack in opportunity attack... the original power 'Opportunity Attack' is still what is executed.

 

[Fkewl]

But now, not so sure with the last post from Ferghis ..

I would be simpler if
Opportunity Action granting an MBA (specifically) = Opportunity Attack since OA is an Opportunity Action granting an MBA.
but the OA, has a trigger.. now, does that trigger really changes anything..

But reading DracoSuave, i see the difference between the POWER "OA", with it's specific trigger and action type cost, and another power granting an Opportunity Action which gives an MBA.

 

[mudlock]

"Triggering this power is usually referred to as making an opportunity attack." The term usually can imply two different things. Either there are other ways to refer to triggering that power or there are other things that can be referred to as an opportunity attack.

Those aren't the only two things that can mean, nor are either of those what I think it means. It means (I think) that usually, instead of saying "The enemies movement triggers your Opportunity Attack", you say the rather shorter "Make an Opportunity Attack".

I'm wondering, for example, if an attack power - other than the above-referenced Opportunity Attack - that costs an opportunity action would trigger the property of a Warding Blade ("Property: While you wield this weapon in your off hand, you gain an item bonus to AC against opportunity attacks equal to the blade’s enhancement bonus.") wielded by the target. I'm inclined to say it does, albeit mostly out of a general sense of fairness. Why would you say it does not?

I would say it does not. Such items are usually meant to increase mobility, but if you apply it to any attack that is an opportunity action (such as a black dragon's tail slap (although that's v. rflx, not AC, but roll with me)) which triggers off a melee attack against the dragon, you extend its usefulness to other realms.

That said, treating all attacks that are opportunity actions as opportunity attacks for the purposes of keying bonuses from feats etc. probably wouldn't break the game, but it would make a team including characters with Mindlink Strike and such feats a little more effective, and creatures like black dragons a little less effective. Not the end of the world, but I think it wouldn't be RAW or RAI.

 

[Ferghis]

Some powers ARE intended to be used as opportunity attacks, and those powers explicitly say so. 'This power may be used in an opportunity attack.' The way those powers work tho, is they replace the melee basic attack in opportunity attack... the original power 'Opportunity Attack' is still what is executed.

This makes sense.

But I guess a Shaman's core spirit attacks are not Opportunity Attacks. I kinda wish they were.

Those aren't the only two things that can mean, nor are either of those what I think it means. It means (I think) that usually, instead of saying "The enemies movement triggers your Opportunity Attack", you say the rather shorter "Make an Opportunity Attack".

I think you misunderstood me. The meaning you take is the meaning of the sentence without the word usually. I was trying to figure out what the addition of that word to the sentence meant.