D&D 5E Odd weapons...

[Krakenspire]

So I have some weapons issues to ask about and wonder what the community here thinks about them.

The first has probably been gone over. What is the point of a trident? I mean can't it be made even a little bit different from a spear in a good way? I understand morningstar/warpick, battleaxe/longsword, halberd/glaive are all really just cosmetically differnt though there are slight cost, weight differences that are irrelevant after a level or two. But a simple weapons and a martial weapon essentially exactly the same? The trident is actually significantly worse in cost and weight? Why not different damage or properties for the trident? Or event give the piercing category a 1d8 versatile weapon? I suppose the cosmetic difference is important as well in this case...

Next issue is the whip. A category all on its own its a 1d4 dmg, finesse reach weapon that can be used one handed. There is nothing even close to it in the other weapon groups. Is anyone using it? And if so why and for what? I really find it interesting. I do however think that it needs feat support to truly make it cool, with grapples, disarms and cool other options to swing over pits Indian Jones style. I suppose you could use the optional disarm rule in the DMG or combat superiority for it. I really want to use it two weapon style, but that requires a feat...

The net. Is it even worth it aside from a nice description for monster traps and gladiator types? Its essentially a throw away 1gp alchemical item (tanglefoot bag anyone?). DC 10 check is not that hard at any level. Range is terrible, you cant control what you catch etc... Feat support for this as well I suppose.

Why is blowgun a martial weapon? Its used by tribal societies because it is simple to use and make. Poison application only. I don't see how it could have been bad in the simple weapon slot...

/rant

 

[was]

The first has probably been gone over. What is the point of a trident? Why not different damage or properties for the trident? Or even give the piercing category a 1d8 versatile weapon?

..Yes, IMO the trident needs to be fixed. It originally evolved as a fishing implement. As such, there's no reason not to make it a simple weapon. Second, with multiple piercing tines it should do more damage. Third, as a weapon that can be effectively wielded in one, or both, hands it probably should be versatile. Maybe make it a d08/d10.

...I think the whip is mainly a flavor weapon. I seldom see it used, other than the Rogue-Indiana Jones archetype.

...Is the net worth it? Not IMO, unless you are building one specific gladiator type.

...Yeah, I agree that the blowgun should be simple as well. IMO, poison application should be a skill check issue, not a reason to put it in the martial category.

 

[Minigiant]

Trident: You need proficient to use a trident effectively. If you find a magic trident, you can't use it well if you lack proficiency with it.

Whip: The whip is the only reach finesse weapon.

Net: Nets can lock down low strength targets well as it takes a whole action to escape it if the target lacks multiple attacks. Netting mages is broken.

 

[MechaPilot]

I think the weapons definitely need to be fixed.

D&D has always had something of an issue with weapons. When I look back through the different editions that I still own, the weapon design is disappointing. In every edition (excluding the effects of feats) there is usually no reason to select and carry anything but the highest damage melee weapon and the highest damage ranged weapon you are proficient with.

For fixing the 5e weapons, I'm going to experiment with the following ideas:

Trident: When an opponent misses you with an armed melee attack, you may spend your reaction to attempt to disarm that enemy.

Whip: When you hit an opponent with a whip you may spend your bonus action to attempt to trip the enemy, or to disarm her if she is armed.

 

[Staffan]

..Yes, IMO the trident needs to be fixed. It originally evolved as a fishing implement. As such, there's no reason not to make it a simple weapon. Second, with multiple piercing tines it should do more damage.

Not so sure about that. Multiple edges and points really translate into a blunter weapon - you still hit with the same amount of force, but spread over a greater surface area. It's basically the same principle as a bed of nails - if you put your body weight on a single nail it's going to make a deep hole in you, but if you spread it over a hundred or a thousand nails they won't have enough pressure to pierce your skin.

Then again, a spear driven with full force against the softer parts of a human body is likely to overpenetrate, so perhaps multiple wounds with less force against each one would be more effective.

But the point (heh) of a trident is not to be a more efficient killing weapon, it's to be better at catching things. Similar to the way we use forks to eat food and to handle straw and dung, the prongs make it the trident better at catching fish.

 

[was]

Multiple edges and points really translate into a blunter weapon - you still hit with the same amount of force, but spread over a greater surface area. It's basically the same principle as a bed of nails - if you put your body weight on a single nail it's going to make a deep hole in you, but if you spread it over a hundred or a thousand nails they won't have enough pressure to pierce your skin.

...Yeah, I can see where you are going. I'd still have to disagree with the d6 damage rating in the book. We're not talking about hundreds or thousands of very short points to spread the force out over. We're talking three very long points driven sharply through the body. We're also talking about a forceful, sudden thrust versus slowly lowering the opposing force upon the contact points. You'll never see a magician do a belly flop onto a bed of three railroad spikes.
...I think the bulk of the argument rests on the length of the tines. I have seen some examples with three tines of the same length, while others have two shorter tines accompanying the main point. With the uneven tines, I can see you spreading out some of the impact. Even then, I still believe it merits more damage than a shortsword. At least as much as the rapier. Assuming that our examples are being limited to the standard trident and not the pitchfork or military fork which evolved from it.

 

[LapBandit]

I think what you are missing is the reason for the differences in the weapons is because they all originally had one special move you could do with them during the play-test per Mike Mearls. They took it out because they thought it went against the streamlining of 5E they were doing (supposedly). That left some weapons (trident, great axe, whip, etc) in weird sub-optimal positions (but for whatever reason) they didn't think it was important enough to correct before launch.

Does anyone have a copy of the play-test where each weapon still had a special move? I'd be ever so grateful for a copy.

 

[Krakenspire]

On of the historical advantages of a weapon with the shape of a trident is that the fork can be used to trap or block attacks, arms swinging etc... but you really don't take that into account with a trident. They were used by Roman gladiators and in some Korean martial arts. Also military forks were used as polearms and probably have the same "stats" as a pike in the game.

The issue with the trident is that its versatile and throwable which changes the entire economy of the weapon. If you give it higher dmg like a longsword then its just a throwable longsword. What makes it different. Without options like defensive, brutal, prof bonus or crit changes its harder to specialize the weapons. If I had my druthers the trident would do 2d3 dmg and 2d4 with versatile. Not a big change but makes it better to lug around than a spear, and javelin still has the higher thrown range. The higher avg damage is due to the fact of the probability of at least one tine hitting the target.

 

[aramis erak]

Next issue is the whip. A category all on its own its a 1d4 dmg, finesse reach weapon that can be used one handed. There is nothing even close to it in the other weapon groups. Is anyone using it? And if so why and for what? I really find it interesting. I do however think that it needs feat support to truly make it cool, with grapples, disarms and cool other options to swing over pits Indian Jones style. I suppose you could use the optional disarm rule in the DMG or combat superiority for it. I really want to use it two weapon style, but that requires a feat...

My daughter's Elven Monk is using a whip specifically because it's a 10' reach melee weapon. Sure, it's only a d4, but so is her character's fist. (For now.) With it in one hand, she can keep badguys from disengaging from allies...

 

[Paraxis]

Club - should have the finesse quality, many stick fighters and martial arts styles use dexterity and speed with clubs, plus rogues should have a bludgeoning option

Greatclub - should do more than a staff used two handed so make them do d10 damage

Staff, Spear, Unarmed - I would like to see all of them have the finesse quality but understand why they don't

Flail - should have something to make it an option as it is always better to have a warhammer, give it the ability to have a +2 attack vs targets with shields or behind cover.

Lance - you can dual wield them with a feat, that is silly, halflings and gnomes can dual wield them make them two handed and part of the special is while mounted you can use a shield in your off hand.

Rapier - understand why it's not light, but it should have a special quality to be able to be paired with an off hand dagger without a feat, 3 different new players to games on roll20 have wanted to do this and I told them just to use two short swords or scimitars.

Trident - as pointed out already this is just dumb.

Whip - why isn't this light, so that it can be used in the off hand without a feat, it would see a lot more play that way.

Blowgun - since any weapon can deliver poison, this should be great at it, give the target struck disadvantage on any save vs poison delivered with a blowgun.

Net - it should be able to be used as a shield in the off hand.

Just some ideas.

Should I mention how completely dumb the armor list is? Leather armor, who the heck wears that?