Of all the complaints about 3.x systems... do you people actually allow this stuff ?

[Evenglare]

Why wouldn't you do it, with the way spell casting works.

I figured the reason not to do it was obvious, but I'll spell it out. 20 minute days completely destroy the pace of an adventure. The ability of the caster should be to ration his spells before the day is over and then rest, which is the intention of the game ,they didn't design the spell system to be exploited as in the 20 minute dungeon.

 

[Raith5]

It's been years since I played 3.5, so my details are a bit fuzzy (5 a.m. scotch is not helping, btw):

20 minute adventuring days? Yep. The group had perfectly legal methods allowing them to pop into an extradimensional space for a day or so to recharge their spells. I simply got tired of coming up with reasons why this shouldn't work.

Spell-caster supremacy? By the time the levels were in the teens, magic just became ridiculous to deal with. Players monopolizing play time with their summoned allies, buffed cleric/wildshaped dominating melee combat (CoDzilla), scry/teleport, etc.

Glad to hear that your group is working fine. Personally, I found the arms race exhausting and eventually gave up.

This was my experience. The gap between casters and fighters was noticeable by about 8th or 9th and by 12th casters were in another ball park. The buffing of the fighter types was ever-present (especially haste) and bridged the gap a bit.

But for me the issue of summoning was a big issue. We had a wizard and Druid who liked to summon monsters/animals and fights quickly became a long messy grind. (It was not unusual for these guys to take 10-15 minutes for their turns - and their summoned things - while the fighter types took just a couple of minutes)

I just didnt find 3rd ed much fun after 11th/12th as a result, but I loved it up to that point.

 

[Raith5]

I figured the reason not to do it was obvious, but I'll spell it out. 20 minute days completely destroy the pace of an adventure. The ability of the caster should be to ration his spells before the day is over and then rest, which is the intention of the game ,they didn't design the spell system to be exploited as in the 20 minute dungeon.

I dont think the problem in 3rd ed is as unavoidable as that.

IF a party does not burns its offensive spells to speed up a fight then they will have to go toe - toe, suffer damage, then use their healing magic. IF you have a tough encounter early up - especially if you dont have much healing in the party - then a short day starts looking good.

So sure, I agree that the party should ration their resources, but it is often the case that the short adventuring day is imposed by circumstances - which the rules do really allow for.

4th ed largely avoided these problems by changing the way resources and healing work - especially by the operation of healing surges/second wind.

 

[Hassassin]

Regarding summoned creatures, I've always taken it for granted that the DM plays them. Not sure if that saves any time or anything - they only come up in our games when someone finds a powerful (higher level than anyone can cast) summoning scroll.

 

[Li Shenron]

The big one is the what... 20 minute adventure day ? Rules as written yes, this "theoretically" could be a problem. The thing is , I have been running campaigns for about 15 years now and I can honestly say I have never had this problem. This brings me to my question, does this ACTUALLY happen in your games? If so, why do you allow it?

Doesn't happened to us, at least as a repetitive strategy. It has happened that we retreated from a dungeon because we were out of resources, but not that we consciously waste them and then "refresh".

The other thing is the so called "Caster / Melee" rift. Where wizards and other casters are basically much better than every one else. Has anyone ever actually encountered this in their games? I personally haven't, perhaps it's because my group isn't into min maxing or something. People who play fighters or monks or whatever, they have a fantastic time. They kill enemies just as much as any other character, and I personally have just never seen all of these horrible terrible game breaking elements that seem to be so rampant.

Well... this has never been a problem in combat, but I have to admit that out-of-combat there seems to appear a rift once you get to high levels (e.g. above ~12 level in 3ed), because of the vast range of options opened up by spells. It usually happens to my own characters because I exactly have a tendence to play arcane spellcasters and make them versatile (instead of min-maxing).

 

[Sammael]

The 20-minute adventuring day only exists if the player characters operate in a vacuum. If the world around them changes and responds to their tactics, then they'll soon learn that it's often much better not to give the enemies another day to prepare.

And yes, the enemies also have powerful spells at their disposal. Ones that allow them to learn more about the PCs, their headquarters, favorite watering places, families and loved ones.

 

[Li Shenron]

The 20-minute adventuring day only exists if the player characters operate in a vacuum. If the world around them changes and responds to their tactics, then they'll soon learn that it's often much better not to give the enemies another day to prepare.

Exactly.

I suppose the problem is mostly applied to the party attacking a dungeon, castle or another fairly large location which means multiple encounters in a row.

First of all, it could be said that if the party feels that to "retreat & reload" is the only suitable tactic, then they are playing in quite a blunt way, i.e. they are assuming the only way is in fact to go through each and every encounter and kill'em all. The DM of course is responsible too, if she makes this true. But instead the party could (should?) consider that since each encounter is a chance of death, it would be more convenient to skip as many encounters as you can, and get straight to the target. Maybe the DM is not giving them enough chance for dying?

In any case, it has to be noted that generally the PCs can have the surprise advantage. Let's think of it this way: the evil guys know that early or late a party of good guys is going to try to take them down, but which good guys? They don't know, so their defense is generic, not tailored against the PCs. OTOH the PCs have probably been investigating and learned something about the enemies. However, once they attack, they've revealed something about themselves, and the evil guys can be better prepared for next attack.

 

[humble minion]

The 20-minute adventuring day only exists if the player characters operate in a vacuum. If the world around them changes and responds to their tactics, then they'll soon learn that it's often much better not to give the enemies another day to prepare.

And yes, the enemies also have powerful spells at their disposal. Ones that allow them to learn more about the PCs, their headquarters, favorite watering places, families and loved ones.

Yup.

And sometimes, the world simply won't wait for the PCs to go away and have a good night's sleep and get their big spells back. If the evil ritual will take place on the night of the full moon, then it'll take place on the night of the full moon regardless of whether the PCs blew all their big boom spells getting past the cultists in the outer atrium of the dark temple and aren't sure they can take the high priest on with only their magic missiles left. Or if the PCs are in a castle under siege, then it's actually going to be common-sense tactics on the part of the besieger to draw out the big spells with feints or attacks by expendable units, to attack late at night before casters have been able to replenish their spells, to put on repeated spoiling attacks (or to use horns, drums, ghost sound etc) to prevent spellcasters getting sleep, etc etc. If the PCs are in a big battle, how are their allies going to react if they bugger off into a rope trick a couple of minutes in after firing off all their fireballs? Hell, this tactic could even get some priests and paladins in trouble with their church in certain circumstances - particularly if gods of nobility, war, bravery, etc are involved.

In a well-run world, there should be very few situations in which the PCs feel comfortable retreating from a fight and coming back later to have another go. Unless they're fighting complete mindless automata like some undead, then enemies should have their own agendas, reactions, and contingency plans which will keep progressing regardless of what the PCs are doing.

 

[Sammael]

Anecdotally, I had the PCs pull the "20 minute adventuring day" (on a somewhat bigger time scale) while in Waterdeep. They came to the city in order to go into Undermountain, locate the Manshoon clone dwelling within, and stop him from creating an army of monsters and unleashing it upon the Western Heartlands.

They waited... and gathered info... and waited some more... and did some side quests... and prepared some more... and commissioned equipment... and when they finally went down, Manshoon and his army of monsters were gone. Now they had to stop Manshoon AND his army from destroying north Cormyr and the Dalelands enroute to Zhentil Keep.

Granted, it was one of the coolest campaign arcs I ever ran, but I'm pretty sure the PCs (one of which was from Cormyr) were not exactly thrilled when they learned what their procrastination had spawned.

 

[Number48]

The 20-minute adventuring day only exists if the player characters operate in a vacuum. If the world around them changes and responds to their tactics, then they'll soon learn that it's often much better not to give the enemies another day to prepare.

And yes, the enemies also have powerful spells at their disposal. Ones that allow them to learn more about the PCs, their headquarters, favorite watering places, families and loved ones.

Except, of course, when the enemies DON'T have magic, or much magic. That group of ogres and gnolls can only bolster their defenses physically, and what they can accomplish in 12 hours is pretty crappy compared to freshly rested adventurers.