Offensive & Defesnive Fighting, Caster or Tank or DPS

[Bladesinger_Boy]

From a saves thread...
If we wanted to do something like this for BAB, how? Saves have only two value streams (2+x/2 and 0+x/3) and are closer in values, while BAB have three streams (x, 3x/4, x/2) that end much further apart. The 4th Ed values for BAB are 1/2 per level and that is simply too low in 3.5. Maybe 3/4 with some adjustments? But changing BAB means adjusting a LOT of prestige class; some kind of flat rule?

From a shield thread...
DEFENSIVE ATTACK
-2 to hit per +1 dodge AC (2/1 ratio)
can take a -2 penalty to hit per tier (-2 at 1st, -4 at 11th, -6 at 21st).
Various things can increase the dodge bonus ratio granted by +1 each (unless otherwise noted), as listed below:
- using a Shield: +1 if a Buckler or Light Shield, +2 if a Heavy or Tower Shield, or +1 TWFing with the TW Defense feat
- using medium or heavy armor
- having the Combat Expertise feat
- having Elaborate Parry class feature, or +2 if also having off hand free
- being adjacent to another ally also using Defensive Attack that round
- maybe some "Tactics" feat (don't attack at all one round, +2 defensive ratio next round?)
- using a "defending" enchanted weapon
- ratio gets -1 penalty if using a Two-Handed weapon
- ratio gets -1 penalty if not wielding a proficient melee weapon


OFFENSIVE ATTACK
-2 to hit per +1 damage with all weapons. (2/1 ratio)
can take a -2 penalty to hit per tier (-2 at 1st, -4 at 11th, -6 at 21st).
Various things can increase the damage bonus ratio granted by +1 each (unless otherwise noted), as listed below:
- using a Two-handed weapon grants +2
- having the Power Attack feat
- having the class feature Improved Power Attack
- status effects like "Raging"
- charging
- maybe some "Tactics" feat (don't attack at all one round, +2 offensive ratio next round?)
- using an "offensive" (say +1) enchanted weapon
- ratio gets -1 penalty if using a light weapon in primary hand (not if off hand)
- ratio gets -1 penalty if using a shield or any armor heavier than light armor

It seems that having 1/2 saves seemed popular. Okay. So, for BAB, what? I propose the following:
- "leaders" or "controllers" (full casters) get 1/2 BAB (even druids and clerics I'd say)
- "strikers" like Rogues, Scouts, probably Rangers, get 3/4 BAB
- "tanks" like Fighters, Paladins, or Barbarians get 3/4 BAB
- (just to clarify, no class- base or prestige- get full 1/1 BAB)

Why do strikers get the same BAB as tanks? Wait, what does a tank do better than a DPS striker? Not damage output. TANKing: higher HP, AC, defenses. Tanking also involves "pulling aggro", so find ways to proactively or reactively take hits instead of other party members (which will probably require some kind of Marking like 4E). We can give them the same BAB and still be okay here.

So, tanks need to be able to do/have:
- higher HP: higher hit dice, more ways to get DR or heal self, promote con score
- higher AC: armor profs, shield profs (though I like Sadrick's idea of shield profs rolled into weapon profs), Monk AC maybe?, extra AC for certain armors maybe
- higher saves: since it sounds like saves will be 1/2, things like divine grace, those save feats, extra bonus against specific save effects
- marking: anything that reinforces the idea of hitting the tank and punishes the idea of hitting someone else

In that way, Rogue VS Paladin, both are skilled combatants. Rogue is speced towards offensive damage and opportunism while Paladin is speced towards defense, taking hits, and keeping attacks off his fellow party members.

Broadly speaking, this comes down to what philosophies the game should embody and what practices and mechanics the game should have. I like the idea of:
- less rolls per turn (increased play speed)
- less power overall (attacking and spellcasting)
- more similar, consolidated mechanics and less exceptional rules that unintentionally stack
- more positive interdependence in terms of party rolls and less emphasis on damage per turn as a measure of party success
- more unilateral character-level based mechanics and less class-level based mechanics

 

[Kerrick]

- "leaders" or "controllers" (full casters) get 1/2 BAB (even druids and clerics I'd say)
- "strikers" like Rogues, Scouts, probably Rangers, get 3/4 BAB
- "tanks" like Fighters, Paladins, or Barbarians get 3/4 BAB
- (just to clarify, no class- base or prestige- get full 1/1 BAB)

Why do strikers get the same BAB as tanks? Wait, what does a tank do better than a DPS striker? Not damage output. TANKing: higher HP, AC, defenses. Tanking also involves "pulling aggro", so find ways to proactively or reactively take hits instead of other party members (which will probably require some kind of Marking like 4E). We can give them the same BAB and still be okay here.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. Tanks should have higher BAB. They're martial classes, they're more experienced at fighting, and thus they're more likely to be able to hit things than strikers. Strikers make up for the lack of BAB with extra damage - sneak attack/skirmish/whatever.

So, tanks need to be able to do/have:
- higher HP: higher hit dice, more ways to get DR or heal self, promote con score
- higher AC: armor profs, shield profs (though I like Sadrick's idea of shield profs rolled into weapon profs), Monk AC maybe?, extra AC for certain armors maybe
- higher saves: since it sounds like saves will be 1/2, things like divine grace, those save feats, extra bonus against specific save effects
- marking: anything that reinforces the idea of hitting the tank and punishes the idea of hitting someone else

They already have most of these (except for "marking", which is a concept unique to 4E). Martial classes have d10/d12 HD, all armor/shields, and decent Fort saves. What they lack is class abilities to shore up their weaknesses (things like mettle, IUD, etc.).

Broadly speaking, this comes down to what philosophies the game should embody and what practices and mechanics the game should have. I like the idea of:
- less rolls per turn (increased play speed)
- less power overall (attacking and spellcasting)
- more similar, consolidated mechanics and less exceptional rules that unintentionally stack
- more positive interdependence in terms of party rolls and less emphasis on damage per turn as a measure of party success
- more unilateral character-level based mechanics and less class-level based mechanics

I agree with you on all points except for 2/3 - while I like the idea of lower overall power, you have to consider that if the PCs are dealing less damage/round and the monsters stay the same, you'll run into the same problem 4E has: grinding. You can do this, though, by making characters more effective at doing other things that take opponents out of combat, or set them up for others to finish them off (combat maneuvers, e.g.).

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

Because modifying BAB for 3.5 would require the most retooling, I'm inclined to agree with you and keep BAB the same. Do you actually think the 3/4 BAB precision dice classes like rogue, scout, ninja having higher damage output that full 1/1 BAB martial classes like Barbarian or Fighter? I just feel like full 1/1 BAB classes rock and full caster classes rock, and 3/4 BAB stuff tends to be left behind. Maybe, with Pathfinder Rogue talents, things are better.

Maybe we don't need to add in marking. We could retool things like Goad feat, or Dodge, or whatever that implicitly involve mechanics for marking targets. I've been told that Everquest RPG has good feats and mechanics like Goad for "pulling aggro" and forcing monsters to attack you.

 

[Kerrick]

Because modifying BAB for 3.5 would require the most retooling, I'm inclined to agree with you and keep BAB the same. Do you actually think the 3/4 BAB precision dice classes like rogue, scout, ninja having higher damage output that full 1/1 BAB martial classes like Barbarian or Fighter? I just feel like full 1/1 BAB classes rock and full caster classes rock, and 3/4 BAB stuff tends to be left behind. Maybe, with Pathfinder Rogue talents, things are better.

Not really, no. Rogues have sneak attack, monks have increased unarmed damage, and clerics have their spells. The problem is that they can't hit anything at the higher levels, which is why the EAB is necessary.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

Kerrick, you're right. Full 1/1 BAB is too high.

I my view of things, they should be chopped down to 3/4 and throw some other kind of bone their way. Check out my most recent post in this thread so some ideas.