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<blockquote data-quote="Bladesinger_Boy" data-source="post: 5070285" data-attributes="member: 87403"><p>From a saves thread...</p><p>If we wanted to do something like this for BAB, how? Saves have only two value streams (2+x/2 and 0+x/3) and are closer in values, while BAB have three streams (x, 3x/4, x/2) that end much further apart. The 4th Ed values for BAB are 1/2 per level and that is simply too low in 3.5. Maybe 3/4 with some adjustments? But changing BAB means adjusting a LOT of prestige class; some kind of flat rule?</p><p></p><p>From a shield thread...</p><p>DEFENSIVE ATTACK</p><p>-2 to hit per +1 dodge AC (2/1 ratio)</p><p>can take a -2 penalty to hit per tier (-2 at 1st, -4 at 11th, -6 at 21st).</p><p>Various things can increase the dodge bonus ratio granted by +1 each (unless otherwise noted), as listed below:</p><p>- using a Shield: +1 if a Buckler or Light Shield, +2 if a Heavy or Tower Shield, or +1 TWFing with the TW Defense feat</p><p>- using medium or heavy armor</p><p>- having the Combat Expertise feat</p><p>- having Elaborate Parry class feature, or +2 if also having off hand free</p><p>- being adjacent to another ally also using Defensive Attack that round</p><p>- maybe some "Tactics" feat (don't attack at all one round, +2 defensive ratio next round?)</p><p>- using a "defending" enchanted weapon</p><p>- ratio gets -1 penalty if using a Two-Handed weapon</p><p>- ratio gets -1 penalty if not wielding a proficient melee weapon</p><p></p><p> </p><p>OFFENSIVE ATTACK</p><p>-2 to hit per +1 damage with all weapons. (2/1 ratio)</p><p>can take a -2 penalty to hit per tier (-2 at 1st, -4 at 11th, -6 at 21st).</p><p>Various things can increase the damage bonus ratio granted by +1 each (unless otherwise noted), as listed below:</p><p>- using a Two-handed weapon grants +2</p><p>- having the Power Attack feat</p><p>- having the class feature Improved Power Attack</p><p>- status effects like "Raging"</p><p>- charging</p><p>- maybe some "Tactics" feat (don't attack at all one round, +2 offensive ratio next round?)</p><p>- using an "offensive" (say +1) enchanted weapon</p><p>- ratio gets -1 penalty if using a light weapon in primary hand (not if off hand)</p><p>- ratio gets -1 penalty if using a shield or any armor heavier than light armor</p><p></p><p>It seems that having 1/2 saves seemed popular. Okay. So, for BAB, what? I propose the following:</p><p>- "leaders" or "controllers" (full casters) get 1/2 BAB (even druids and clerics I'd say)</p><p>- "strikers" like Rogues, Scouts, probably Rangers, get 3/4 BAB</p><p>- "tanks" like Fighters, Paladins, or Barbarians get 3/4 BAB</p><p>- (just to clarify, no class- base or prestige- get full 1/1 BAB)</p><p></p><p>Why do strikers get the same BAB as tanks? Wait, what does a tank do better than a DPS striker? Not damage output. TANKing: higher HP, AC, defenses. Tanking also involves "pulling aggro", so find ways to proactively or reactively take hits instead of other party members (which will probably require some kind of Marking like 4E). We can give them the same BAB and still be okay here.</p><p></p><p>So, tanks need to be able to do/have:</p><p>- higher HP: higher hit dice, more ways to get DR or heal self, promote con score</p><p>- higher AC: armor profs, shield profs (though I like Sadrick's idea of shield profs rolled into weapon profs), Monk AC maybe?, extra AC for certain armors maybe</p><p>- higher saves: since it sounds like saves will be 1/2, things like divine grace, those save feats, extra bonus against specific save effects</p><p>- marking: anything that reinforces the idea of hitting the tank and punishes the idea of hitting someone else</p><p></p><p>In that way, Rogue VS Paladin, both are skilled combatants. Rogue is speced towards offensive damage and opportunism while Paladin is speced towards defense, taking hits, and keeping attacks off his fellow party members.</p><p></p><p>Broadly speaking, this comes down to what philosophies the game should embody and what practices and mechanics the game should have. I like the idea of:</p><p>- less rolls per turn (increased play speed)</p><p>- less power overall (attacking and spellcasting)</p><p>- more similar, consolidated mechanics and less exceptional rules that unintentionally stack</p><p>- more positive interdependence in terms of party rolls and less emphasis on damage per turn as a measure of party success</p><p>- more unilateral character-level based mechanics and less class-level based mechanics</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bladesinger_Boy, post: 5070285, member: 87403"] From a saves thread... If we wanted to do something like this for BAB, how? Saves have only two value streams (2+x/2 and 0+x/3) and are closer in values, while BAB have three streams (x, 3x/4, x/2) that end much further apart. The 4th Ed values for BAB are 1/2 per level and that is simply too low in 3.5. Maybe 3/4 with some adjustments? But changing BAB means adjusting a LOT of prestige class; some kind of flat rule? From a shield thread... DEFENSIVE ATTACK -2 to hit per +1 dodge AC (2/1 ratio) can take a -2 penalty to hit per tier (-2 at 1st, -4 at 11th, -6 at 21st). Various things can increase the dodge bonus ratio granted by +1 each (unless otherwise noted), as listed below: - using a Shield: +1 if a Buckler or Light Shield, +2 if a Heavy or Tower Shield, or +1 TWFing with the TW Defense feat - using medium or heavy armor - having the Combat Expertise feat - having Elaborate Parry class feature, or +2 if also having off hand free - being adjacent to another ally also using Defensive Attack that round - maybe some "Tactics" feat (don't attack at all one round, +2 defensive ratio next round?) - using a "defending" enchanted weapon - ratio gets -1 penalty if using a Two-Handed weapon - ratio gets -1 penalty if not wielding a proficient melee weapon OFFENSIVE ATTACK -2 to hit per +1 damage with all weapons. (2/1 ratio) can take a -2 penalty to hit per tier (-2 at 1st, -4 at 11th, -6 at 21st). Various things can increase the damage bonus ratio granted by +1 each (unless otherwise noted), as listed below: - using a Two-handed weapon grants +2 - having the Power Attack feat - having the class feature Improved Power Attack - status effects like "Raging" - charging - maybe some "Tactics" feat (don't attack at all one round, +2 offensive ratio next round?) - using an "offensive" (say +1) enchanted weapon - ratio gets -1 penalty if using a light weapon in primary hand (not if off hand) - ratio gets -1 penalty if using a shield or any armor heavier than light armor It seems that having 1/2 saves seemed popular. Okay. So, for BAB, what? I propose the following: - "leaders" or "controllers" (full casters) get 1/2 BAB (even druids and clerics I'd say) - "strikers" like Rogues, Scouts, probably Rangers, get 3/4 BAB - "tanks" like Fighters, Paladins, or Barbarians get 3/4 BAB - (just to clarify, no class- base or prestige- get full 1/1 BAB) Why do strikers get the same BAB as tanks? Wait, what does a tank do better than a DPS striker? Not damage output. TANKing: higher HP, AC, defenses. Tanking also involves "pulling aggro", so find ways to proactively or reactively take hits instead of other party members (which will probably require some kind of Marking like 4E). We can give them the same BAB and still be okay here. So, tanks need to be able to do/have: - higher HP: higher hit dice, more ways to get DR or heal self, promote con score - higher AC: armor profs, shield profs (though I like Sadrick's idea of shield profs rolled into weapon profs), Monk AC maybe?, extra AC for certain armors maybe - higher saves: since it sounds like saves will be 1/2, things like divine grace, those save feats, extra bonus against specific save effects - marking: anything that reinforces the idea of hitting the tank and punishes the idea of hitting someone else In that way, Rogue VS Paladin, both are skilled combatants. Rogue is speced towards offensive damage and opportunism while Paladin is speced towards defense, taking hits, and keeping attacks off his fellow party members. Broadly speaking, this comes down to what philosophies the game should embody and what practices and mechanics the game should have. I like the idea of: - less rolls per turn (increased play speed) - less power overall (attacking and spellcasting) - more similar, consolidated mechanics and less exceptional rules that unintentionally stack - more positive interdependence in terms of party rolls and less emphasis on damage per turn as a measure of party success - more unilateral character-level based mechanics and less class-level based mechanics [/QUOTE]
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