Offhand Staff of Ruin: Yea or Nea?

[logopolis]

This issue came up in a recent RPGA game I played.

If a wizard (or multiclass wizard) holds a Staff of Ruin in his off-hand, does he get its bonus item damage when making an attack with a weapon/implement in his main hand?
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The Staff of Ruin is a magical implement with the following property: "In addition to the normal enhancement bonus, add the staff's enhancement bonus to damage rolls as an item bonus."

Argument for: According to the PH FAQ, question 19, if you wield two implements, the properties for both apply. Presumably, this applies to holding a weapon and an implement as well. Unlike most other implements, the property does not specify that the attack has to originate from the staff itself.

Argument against: This is yet another case of a poorly written Adventurer's Vault item. Since the property says "in addition to the normal enhancement bonus...", the item bonus only applies when the enhancement bonus applies -- when the attack is made using the staff itself.
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[Black Knight Irios]

I say no. Check with AV notes on weapon properties.

To gain the benefit of a weapon’s
property, you must be wielding the weapon. Unless
specified otherwise, a property affects only the
weapon to which it’s attached. For example, a +2 cunning
dagger, which bestows a –2 penalty to an enemy’s
saving throws against your weapon powers, affects
only powers that are delivered using that weapon.
You couldn’t hold the weapon in your off-hand and
gain the benefit of the property on powers delivered
using a main weapon.

Emphasis mine.

Even if there are properties that work while only holding the weapon/implement and attacking with another, you cannot deduct from that that it is a general rule.

Argument against: This is yet another case of a poorly written Adventurer's Vault item. Since the property says "in addition to the normal enhancement bonus...", the item bonus only applies when the enhancement bonus applies -- when the attack is made using the staff itself.

And this alone is enough to answer your question with no.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Nay!

19. Can a Warlock benefit from holding two rods?

Yes, a warlock can gain the properties from two rods, buthe still can only use one to make an attack.

You gain the benefit of properties that don't effect attacks (which is most of the Rod properties in the PHB), but you still only apply properties that affect attacks if you attack using that implement.

 

[Lakoda]

Argument for: According to the PH FAQ, question 19, if you wield two implements, the properties for both apply. Presumably, this applies to holding a weapon and an implement as well. Unlike most other implements, the property does not specify that the attack has to originate from the staff itself.

This does not even apply in this case, as you cannot wield a staff in one hand - it is a two handed item.

 

[logopolis]

Just for the record, I'm in the "nay" camp as well.

This does not even apply in this case, as you cannot wield a staff in one hand - it is a two handed item.

I believe you can use a staff implement in one hand (otherwise Small casters wouldn't be able to use it). You have to wield it in to hands if you want to use it as a weapon, though.

 

[Lakoda]

Has there been an official response on this? The rules don't say either way. What about that feat that lets a warlord-warlock use a pole-arm as a warlock implements ... is doing so one-handed as well?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree that you can use a staff as an implement one-handed. It simply fills that 'hand'. If you now want to use it as a weapon you would have to drop whatever is in the other hand, and shift the staff to both hands, which one may or may not construe as a minor action.

Likewise I would say that if a staff granted any benefits simply by being equipped, then you could gain those benefits from holding it in one hand.

As for the staff of ruin, like any implement it should only grant bonuses to attacks which are delivered through the staff. The property of the staff of ruin is just an extra bonus, it pumps damage as well as to-hit. Doesn't say that it does so for attacks not delivered using it, and it would be the ONLY item I know of that did that if it were true. I think whoever interpreted it to mean it did do that was reaching, a lot. Definitely would be shot down at my table.

 

[The Digger]

To Logopolis no. I think the rules make this point quite well. PHB p225, Enhancement. "Magic weapons and implements grant their enhancement bonus...to powers delivered through the weapon or implement...". Other benefits eg Staff of Defence still apply.

And (to Lakoda) no, you do not need to hold a staff two-handed to use it as an implement. PHB p240 STAFFS says "fashioned as a quarterstaff or a walking staff" (my emphasis) and "a staff ALSO functions as a melee weapon (treat as a quarterstaff). A walking staff is a one-handed utensil and is and can be wielded one-handed.

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

Definitely Nay. Using it as an implement in one hand is fine but using it to modify the power of a separate implement is ridiculous. Implements/Enhancements don't stack. This staff's power is that it does 2x enhancement bonus to attacks made with it.

You can use two implements, but only one of them can affect any attack, no where does it imply or state that it's possible to use two implements on one attack.

Something digger said makes me wonder... do staff and orb wizards get their staff or orb enhancement to the defensive bonus or save penalty? My initial gut reaction is no especially considering the problems already centered around orb with a high benefit.

 

[Lakoda]

To Logopolis no. I think the rules make this point quite well. PHB p225, Enhancement. "Magic weapons and implements grant their enhancement bonus...to powers delivered through the weapon or implement...". Other benefits eg Staff of Defence still apply.

And (to Lakoda) no, you do not need to hold a staff two-handed to use it as an implement. PHB p240 STAFFS says "fashioned as a quarterstaff or a walking staff" (my emphasis) and "a staff ALSO functions as a melee weapon (treat as a quarterstaff). A walking staff is a one-handed utensil and is and can be wielded one-handed.

Thanks, I think this is why I got the wrong idea. Technically a quarter staff (like a Bo staff) is much longer then a traditional "walking staff" and is more closely related to a pole-arm. That being said, the feat to let you use it as a double weapon only emphasizes that it is in fact a long weapon. A half staff (like a Jo staff) would be most inline with what I consider a one-handed walking staff. There is an inconsistency here that I think I'll be addressing in my games with two distinct weapons - the half staff and the quarterstaff. I've homebrewed what I would like as a solution, here.