Official ruling on Battlerager Vigor mechanics

[James McMurray]

Another cap that feels right would be your surge value. There are some ways to get temp hp equal to your surge value, and at least one that lets you get more (Heart of the Titan). So maybe just limiting total temporary hit points to be 1) the amount you gain from a single source or 2) your healing surge value. That way if you've got less than your surge value and use an invigorating power you'll gain some, but if you've got more than the cap you won't. And it won't tread on the toes of any current powers.

 

[Obryn]

Battlerager Vigor: gives you THP if you are hit. There is nothing special about these THP's and do not stack with other THP. This in of itself is a huge bonus, replenshing your THP everytime you get hit.

Invigorating: Gives you THP that stacks with other sources of THP. Follow the THP stacking rules though and they should not stack with themselves.
Nowhere is battlerager Vigor mentioned under invigorating.

Reason why you should keep Invigorating seperate from Vigor THP sources.
Con: 18
Not seperate: If you have 8THP, (4 from Vigor, 4 from invigorating) and you are struck for 4 points of damage. THe the player can simply say he still has 8 THP after the hit because he gets 4 from Vigor for getting hit.

Seperate: Same situation but this time he recieved his Invigorating THP after he recieved his Vigor THP. He is hit for 4 dmg, and looses his invigorating THP but since still has 4 THP from Vigor he can't add more leaving him with only 4 THP.

That's ... not how I read it at all. I understand the temptation to do so, but really the Rager only has a single "pool" of temporary hit points.

He starts with 30 HP. Con of 18.

Round 1: He is attacked by an arrow and takes 8 HP. He gains no THP. He is also hit in Melee for 8, triggering his Vigor.
He now has 14 HP & 4 Temp HP
He attacks with an Invigorating power and hits. He gains 4 more THP that stack with the ones he received before, per the class feature.
He now has 14 HP & 8 Temp HP

Round 2: The archer misses this round. He's attacked in melee and hit for 3. This drops his Temp HP down to 5. His Vigor would only give him 4 THPs, but since he already has more than that, he gains nothing.
He now has 14 HP & 5 THP
He attacks and hits with an Invigorating power. He gains 4 more THP.
He now has 14 HP & 9 THP

Round 3: The archer crits him for 10. He loses all his THP, and 1 HP. He's attacked in melee and also hit, this time for 8. He gains 4 THP from his Vigor.
He now has 5 HP & 4 THP and should probably consider getting some healing.
Instead, he attacks and hits with an Invigorating power.
He now has 5 HP & 8 THP.

Round 4: Both enemies miss.
He attacks and hits with an Invigorating power.
He now has 5 HP & 12 THP.

Round 5: The archer misses. In melee, he is attacked and hit for 6. His Vigor would give him 4 THP, but since he still has 6 THP, it does nothing.
He now has 5 HP & 6 THP.

...and so on.

The important things to keep in mind are that (1) The THPs from getting hit in Melee or Close don't stack with any other THPs, regardless of the source; and (2) The THPs from Invigorating stack with any other THPs for a Rager.

-O

 

[Mengu]

Obryn has it.

The only thing I would add to his example is spending an action point in there somewhere to use an invigorating power only to show that it doesn't grant temporary hit points more than once per turn.

 

[Sunglare]

Since I can't resist a little ego stroking, I'll try.

Invigorating powers only stack on top of what you already have. So once they added into your THP pool they are just like any other THP you had. As if you got your current total from one source. Once you've gained the Invigorating THP it wont stack with any other incoming THP because it only stacks with THP you already have not with any THP get.

In your scenario, the player has 4 THP from Vigor and 4 THP from Invigorating for a total of 8 THP. He gets hit for 4 damage and recieves 4 THP from BRV. He would only have 4 THP because THP from BRV don't stack. If he got hit for 5 damage he would still end up with 4 THP because the 4 he gains would overlap with the 3 he already had. If he got hit for 3 damage he would have 5 THP because already has more THP then BRV can provide.



You do need that line because if you look at Invigorating on page 7 again you will notice that there is no mention to stacking at all.

Ah Hah, I see the light. Thanks abyssal, told you you can do it.

 

[Caliber]

Edit: I like abyssaldeath's explanation

The real question is how to make sure any Battlerager at your table actually understands how this all works?

 

[Obryn]

Another cap that feels right would be your surge value. There are some ways to get temp hp equal to your surge value, and at least one that lets you get more (Heart of the Titan). So maybe just limiting total temporary hit points to be 1) the amount you gain from a single source or 2) your healing surge value. That way if you've got less than your surge value and use an invigorating power you'll gain some, but if you've got more than the cap you won't. And it won't tread on the toes of any current powers.

I haven't playtested the Rager yet, but from thinking about it, I don't think this will prove to be a huge problem at all... Unless enemies are always missing, the Rager is never attacked by missile weapons or Area attacks, and he's hitting constantly with Invigorating powers, there will generally be a cap of THPs around 2x the Rager's Con Bonus. (2.5x for Dwarves with Stoneblood Vigor.) 1x the bonus from getting hit in combat, and 1x from hitting with an Invigorating power.

Against a single foe, or against melee-only foes with no ranged support, it could get very grindy since the THPs translate to DR averaging around 1.5 to 2x the Rager's Con bonus vs. every attack. (Melee minions become darn near useless in this scenario, too.) In 4e, these sorts of combats are the exception, rather than the norm. Ragers can fall to concentrated archer fire just as easily as any other class can, in the end.

If you track "pools" separately like Sunglare suggests, stack where you shouldn't stack, or forget about the ranged/area exclusions... Well, you can easily go into Insanity Land.

-O

 

[Obryn]

Edit: I like abyssaldeath's explanation

The real question is how to make sure any Battlerager at your table actually understands how this all works?

Make sure only rules-competent players play one, and make sure they only keep 1 running total of temporary HPs.

-O

 

[abyssaldeath]

Ah Hah, I see the light. Thanks abyssal, told you you can do it.

Woot! I wins the internets!

I'm just glad I could help. I'm not the best at explaining things.

 

[Rogue problem]

ah glad everyone agrees again

I don't suspect this power will get too out of control as a hammer wielding Dwarf's to hit was already weak to begin with. I played one with a 16 str without BRV who was already missing his attacks too often for my liking. With BRV costing a point to hit, he will miss even more and not be getting as many invigorating THP as people might imagine.

 

[Bagpuss]

Reason why you should keep Invigorating seperate from Vigor THP sources.
Con: 18
Not seperate: If you have 8THP, (4 from Vigor, 4 from invigorating) and you are struck for 4 points of damage. THe the player can simply say he still has 8 THP after the hit because he gets 4 from Vigor for getting hit.

NO. Because he has just one pool of 8 THP, not 4 Vigor THP, and 4 Invigorating THP.

THP do not recall the source they come from they are just one pile. the stacking on Invigorating is only checked as you gain them. Once they are added to the pile where they came from doesn't matter.

So he goes down to 4 hit points, then gains 4 THP from Battle Vigor (but they do not stack) so he still only has 4 THP.

Edit: Seems he's already conceded the point. Although not the first poster I've seen come to that conclusion originally, so perhaps it could have been better worded in MP.