OGC Speak Language alternates?

[JBowtie]

I've decided that the default Speak Language rules just aren't realistic enough. Before I start designing my own version of this skill, I'm wondering if anyone is aware of any Open Content variations. (It needs to be open since I will incorporating the rules into my eventually-published campaign setting).

I do know that Kalamar has some variant rules in this regard, but it is clearly and definitely closed content, so I haven't looked at it.

What I'm hoping to see is something that treats it like a real skill, with DCs for various common tasks.

Suggestions?

 

[Vrecknidj]

I've decided that the default Speak Language rules just aren't realistic enough....What I'm hoping to see is something that treats it like a real skill, with DCs for various common tasks.

I'm not trying to discourage you--honest. But, I asked the same question back in the early 3.0 days. I felt that, for example, a professor of English literature would have more ranks in a language-related skill than, say, a middle school English teacher, who might have a rank or two more than a typical common person. But, as everyone pointed out, and has since turned out to be true--the game very rarely moves in this direction, and skill points spent on such things are taken away from other things.

Unless you're playing a variant of the game where it really does matter that your character can tell the difference between a sentence of Shakespeare and a sentence of Milton, then it isn't worth the effort to create such a system, because your players aren't going to partake in it, and the effort will have been wasted.

That said, if you're creating a very specific campaign where such intricasies matter, then I can see the point. In that case, all you need to do, I think, is to have Speak Language have Int as the key modifier, and to assign DCs to tasks (for example, "Know author of a well-known passage: DC 20," "Know author of a rarely-known passage: DC 25," "Know author of an obscure reference: DC 30," etc.

You can include Read/Write Language as a separate skill, also with Int as the key modifier. The two should be tied together with a synergy bonus (i.e. 5 ranks = +2 in the other skill's checks) on a language-by-language basis. You'll then want some feats that allow for things like, if you have 5 ranks in 4 different languages, you can always make an Intelligence check to see if you can figure out the gist of something spoken in another language, etc.

Dave

 

[JBowtie]

The motivation is pretty simple. I have a limited number of languages (eight to ten) and a game where politics is very important.
The standard rules (one rank grants full literacy) are too loose in such a situation. What I'm looking for is to be able to distinguish between being able to ask for directions to the inn and the ability to make an impassioned speech.

 

[Afrodyte]

The motivation is pretty simple. I have a limited number of languages (eight to ten) and a game where politics is very important.
The standard rules (one rank grants full literacy) are too loose in such a situation. What I'm looking for is to be able to distinguish between being able to ask for directions to the inn and the ability to make an impassioned speech.

I don't know of any specific OGL rules for treating languages as real skills, but I can give you my take on it.

First of all, I had to determine what each level of competence was and how many skill ranks fit each one. Keep in mind that this is not balanced for epic level play. Taking a cue from a method I used for another skill-rank based system, I decided on the following categories: untrained (0 ranks), novice (1-5 ranks), seasoned (6-10 ranks), expert (11-15 ranks), master (16-20 ranks), and legend (21-25 ranks).

Your automatic languages (aka native languages) are given by race as in the PHB. You can also choose your bonus languages as per the PHB. A character starts out with 10 ranks in his native languages and 4 ranks in the bonus languages he chooses. Everything else needs to be purchased with additional skill points. If you want a less potent version, make characters pay for the points spent on language skills anyway and still limit what they can take as starting characters. The 10 ranks in a character's native languages does go against the skill rank cap based on level, but I consider languages a special case. With 10 ranks, you have native fluency and can communicate effectively in daily situations that native speakers of the language would face. More ranks would be for those whose language skills go beyond those of laymen speakers of the language such as: politicians, poets, storytellers, and educators. The 4 ranks given to bonus languages allows for basic understanding, perhaps enough to let you understand what's being said in trade or in bland, generic conversations ("How do you do? Today is Thursday. The rain in Spain stays mainly on the plain.").

Alternatively, you can keep the skill rank cap but give a hefty bonus for native speakers (say, +3 to +5) and a smaller bonus for the bonus languages (+1 or +2). You could also base these bonuses on race, so non-humans would get a smaller bonus to Common than humans, and races and creatures with similar languages gain heftier bonuses with those languages than do those whose languages are vastly different. This would be based on the alphabet used, since I reckon that languages with similar sounds and grammatical structures would use similar systems of writing.

 

[JBowtie]

I don't know of any specific OGL rules for treating languages as real skills, but I can give you my take on it.

It's a starting point. I've thought about it a little and am looking at it like this:

Characters are *fluent* in their native (automatic) languages. They gain a +5 fluency bonus to all Speak Language checks in these languages, treat these languages as trained and may always take 10.

DC 5 - simple directions, standard greetings, set phrases. Tourist level.
DC 10 - Normal conversation about mudane matters such as buying and selling, weather, health and family. Second-year student.
DC 15 - Specialized conversation (knowledge, craft, profession) incorporating jargon. Note that a fluent character can converse at this level automatically in their native tongue.
DC 20 - Understand thick/unusual accents, closely related languages, archaic speech patterns and so forth. Basically any unusual variations.

5 or more ranks in a given language gives +2 synergy bonus to Perform (oratory). Possibly a synergy to Diplomacy and Bluff?

In a world without automatic literacy (think more realistic settings), a Literacy feat to read and write. Some classes (probably Wizard and Cleric in the core rules) would get this feat for free. Otherwise, requires 4 ranks or fluency in selected language. Note that Decipher Script can be used as a substitute for actual literacy and is therefore more useful.

 

[Aaron2]

I've decided that the default Speak Language rules just aren't realistic enough. Before I start designing my own version of this skill, I'm wondering if anyone is aware of any Open Content variations. (It needs to be open since I will incorporating the rules into my eventually-published campaign setting).

I've been looking over the stuff I have.

Spycraft has a skill called Languages. You speak on language per rank (like Perform used to be). There is a skill DC for figuring stuff out based on how exotic the language is.

Wierd Wars 2 changes the speak languages skill so that your proficiency is based on the number of ranks.
1 rank: You can speak a few simple words
2 ranks: You can speak in simple sentances.
3 ranks: You can speak all but the most complex sentances
4 ranks: Speak with a native accent for short periods
5 ranks: Full native accent (default for native languages)
6 ranks: You can mimic a local dialect or accent.

I know I had one more book. I'll keep looking. BTW-I like the Wierd Wars way the best although I'd probably combine the ranks down a bit.

AFAICT, both are open content.


Aaron

 

[ARandomGod]

We have a few house rules.
Currently all we are using is:

One skill point grants you either the ability to read the language, or to speak it. The second gets you whichever you didn't pick the first time. Bards get speak and read for only one point (making them better at languages). This obviously doesn't take into account varying levels of fluency, but that's not a focus in our campaign.

There are no bonus languages. Instead you get bonus skill points equal to twice your int mod. This allows some people to learn to speak a lot of languages, other people to speak and read a few... and yet others to swim better in one language only. Note that there are a lot of languages in this world.

I've personally thought about the speaking of languages, and have wanted a simple "speak language" skill. A cross class for every class, and one point grants you one language... but you can attempt languages not learned using this skill. To better represent the fact that someone who speaks several languages can more easily understand all.

Just some of my musings to perhaps spark something in your thoughts.

 

[Gez]

Weird Wars 2 changes the speak languages skill so that your proficiency is based on the number of ranks.
1 rank: You can speak a few simple words
2 ranks: You can speak in simple sentances.
3 ranks: You can speak all but the most complex sentances
4 ranks: Speak with a native accent for short periods
5 ranks: Full native accent (default for native languages)
6 ranks: You can mimic a local dialect or accent.

Problem with that system (if directly ported to D&D) is that the average commoner is supposed to be level 1. And thus he can only have 4 ranks in his own language.

4 ranks should be perfect fluency, with 5 ranks you are a scholar in that language and can get synergy bonus to other languages that are close (to take real world examples, good knowledge of French would give synergy bonus to Spanish and Italian).

 

[tensen]

Hmm, not sure that is really a problem with that ranks, as opposed to a problem with th concept.

Is a commoner's dialect the same language as a nobleman's? Or is it a different fluency in the language? This can have a great deal to do with how you chose to define skill points for languages.

The number of ranks to use for a skill would be dependant on whether you were using the skill ranks for skill checks like other skills are used. If you aren't, then I'd say the max skill ranks for irrelevant.

jbowtie's comments make sense. They follow the general rules for DCs on things. I would probably say that if the DCs were to be done for reading, then simple would only be for reading the letters, so everything would be shifted up to the next category.

 

[Aaron2]

Problem with that system (if directly ported to D&D) is that the average commoner is supposed to be level 1. And thus he can only have 4 ranks in his own language.

I forgot to mention that everyone starts with 5 ranks in their native language.


Aaron