Ogre - etymology

[painandgreed]

OED seems uncertain on the origins of the word:

[< French ogre (late 12th cent. in Old French in sense ‘fierce pagan’, c1300 in sense ‘man-eating giant’, attested again from 1613; also hogre (1704 in the passage translated in quot. 1713)), further etymology uncertain and disputed.
French ogre is perh. < classical Latin Orcus, the name of the god of the infernal regions, Hades, Pluto (further etymology uncertain), with metathesis of r (perh. influenced by words such as bougre BOUGRE n.), or perh. < post-classical Latin Ugri, Ungri, Ongri, applied by early writers to the Hungarians or Magyars (see UGRIAN n.). Cf. (< classical Latin Orcus) Middle French orque hell (16th cent.; prob. a later reborrowing), and also Italian orco demon, monster (13th cent.), Spanish huerco devil, personification of death or hell (1330), Sardinian orcu demon, and early modern Dutch orck unruly person (Dutch regional ork). Spanish ogro (1787) is a borrowing from French ogre.

 

[Friadoc]

My bet is that all the roots are right, in that the word developed in multiple places meaning roughly the same thing and, thusly, the confusion.

Ain't language grand? *chuckles*

Seriously, though, many of the various, yet similar, sources all stem from the rough time period, sans the obvious exception of the Latin root of one or two of them.

Since languages are living things, shown abundantly in our time (I mean, people do so "Did you google it?"), it's quite possible that the similar words sprung up independently of one and other with a possible, long forgotten, link to the Latin root of Orcus.

In other words, although the people who first used the word did not realize they were using a bastard child of a Latin root, the modern connection has been drawn to show it.

So, not only was Ugri, Ungri, and Ongri the root for Ogre, meaning Hungarian or Magyars, but it is supposed as a descendant of the Latin root of Orcus, thusly both answers are right.

I mean, honestly, how many of us kids in the 80s do you think knew that when we said "Psych" to someone while playing a prank we were referring to our ability to use applied psychology in a social situation for abject humor.

 

[gizmo33]

I have posted my claims to another thread:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=188104

I have seen two other explanations:

One says it is derived from Orcus, but they never give any explanation.

Another is on this page:
http://www.legendaryquest.com/
Under "A taste of folklore".

Yea, I thought you meant Uigyr in place of Ugur because I had seen the same explanation for the one as the other. So I got what you said wrong - sorry about the frustration.

However, my point still stands here regardless. What you said was historically sound, in a vague sort of way but does not establish a connection between Ogre and Ugur (or such). Neither does the Ogre=Ygg etymology. Both the Ogre=Ugur and Ogre=Ygg etymologies have in common - both can't be true and neither makes it's case on sound linguistic principles. If either one is true, it has not been established by the given reasoning.

Folk etymologies like this are pretty easy to manufacture. I did so with "Ogre=Ogle" in the other thread. The link you mention above is another example. In any case, that legendaryquest.com link IMO is an example of how stringing together facts in a certain order can be used to create a completely false conclusion. ONE of either your etymology, or the "Ogre=Ygg" etymology has to be wrong - and yet both are historically plausible as far as I know (although I found the "Ogre=Ygg" to be less convincing)

What would be needed, in the Ogre=Ygg case for example, would be something like showing that in related languages (German, Dutch, etc.) that translation of Norse (or Icelandic or whatever) words like "Ygg" wound up having equivalencies that produced "Ogre" in those various languages. (This is where AFAIK things like "Grims Law" come in handy).

Then, it probably wouldn't hurt to take some written evidence - something to show that the Norse, and/or Germans, English, or whoever, were using words linguistically related to "Ygg" in ways that fit the definition of "Ogre". (Granted, it's a challenge when the primary written language of the period is Latin - but it's possible.)

Just googling "folk etymology" reveals tons of examples of how historical reasoning, in of itself, is completely inadequate for establishing relationships between words. It's just so easy, when you're talking about relatively few sounds in any given language, to create links between all sorts of things that had no actual link. I'm not saying that the Ogre=Uger thing is wrong, I'm just saying that the standard of proof is much higher than people think (and I think the internet exacerbates the problem).

For what it's worth, my American Heritage Dictionary gives the Orcus=Ogre etymology. However, that's unconvincing in that there are no intermediate forms cited. For example the German word for ogre is "Eiger" AFAIK and yet Eiger is even farther from Orcus whereas the relationship between Latin, English, and German wouldn't support this. Perhaps sometime ago some linguist looked at this and established the connection with reasoning that is no longer given in dictionaries (for example he could go from Latin to French and then branch to English and German). One would hope that dictionaries are not simply repeating unsubstantiated information (the way that the internet does).

 

[gizmo33]

Seriously, though, many of the various, yet similar, sources all stem from the rough time period, sans the obvious exception of the Latin root of one or two of them.

That stands to reason considering that knowledge of the languages in questions, history of the people and their folklore all stem from that period as well.

Since languages are living things, shown abundantly in our time (I mean, people do so "Did you google it?"), it's quite possible that the similar words sprung up independently of one and other with a possible, long forgotten, link to the Latin root of Orcus.

The reasoning here would suggest that "google" has more than one source as a verb and was developed independantly in both German and Italian. "Google" AFAICT has a pretty definite origin and seems to be an example that completely contradicts the point your trying to make. "Living" is not the same thing as "willy-nilly".

So, not only was Ugri, Ungri, and Ongri the root for Ogre, meaning Hungarian or Magyars, but it is supposed as a descendant of the Latin root of Orcus, thusly both answers are right.

Saying it doesn't make it so. I would expect that people's use of Ugri and such could be definitely established as predating those people's knowledge of Latin or anything having to do with Roman culture. In any case I think that establishing, what, if anything, was borrowed from Latin by Ukranian speakers (or whoever owns the earliest attested use of "Ugri") would go along way to making the case. Anything less is just some version of my "ogre=ogle" example.

I mean, honestly, how many of us kids in the 80s do you think knew that when we said "Psych" to someone while playing a prank we were referring to our ability to use applied psychology in a social situation for abject humor.

What a linguist would do AFAIK is actually use evidence in the form of intermediate forms of the word, for example, to establish the connection. What a kid in the 80s, English farmer, or Magyar horseman knows about the words he uses is such a tiny part of the overall issue. If, over time, psych was written as "sike", which sounded just like some Japanese word with some vague similarity in definition, that would not mean that kids in the 80s got the word from Japanese - which is essentially the reasoning that I see here.

 

[Desdichado]

Uh.. yeah, actually. I figgered everyone who said psych knew that it was derived from the same word as, say, psychology, psychiatry, etc. The implication of using mind-games to pull a fast one and all that. It was too obvious to miss, even for a junior high kid.

 

[Friadoc]

Looking back at my post, I just have to say that I gotta love my ability to ramble and misuse analogies that totally derail my original thought and point.

I swear, it's gotta be a natural talent.

 

[Roman]

OED seems uncertain on the origins of the word:

[< French ogre (late 12th cent. in Old French in sense ‘fierce pagan’, c1300 in sense ‘man-eating giant’, attested again from 1613; also hogre (1704 in the passage translated in quot. 1713)), further etymology uncertain and disputed.
French ogre is perh. < classical Latin Orcus, the name of the god of the infernal regions, Hades, Pluto (further etymology uncertain), with metathesis of r (perh. influenced by words such as bougre BOUGRE n.), or perh. < post-classical Latin Ugri, Ungri, Ongri, applied by early writers to the Hungarians or Magyars (see UGRIAN n.). Cf. (< classical Latin Orcus) Middle French orque hell (16th cent.; prob. a later reborrowing), and also Italian orco demon, monster (13th cent.), Spanish huerco devil, personification of death or hell (1330), Sardinian orcu demon, and early modern Dutch orck unruly person (Dutch regional ork). Spanish ogro (1787) is a borrowing from French ogre.

Very interesting - so it appears the origin is uncertain.

 

[Choranzanus]

Well, if Ogre meant "fierce infidel" in late 12th century I find the other theories to be next to indefensible, but that of course is just my impression from history, you can make up your own mind now. Mind you, I just added link to Yggr because it was relevant to the discussion, not because I would believe it.

 

[Roman]

Hmm, there are some connection that can be made here with other languages of peoples who were in contact with the invading Magyars/Ungarns.

The word for a giant in the Czech language, for example, is: Obr

Obr is pronounced the same as ogre, except for the "b" replacing the "g" and the giants in Czech (and Slovak) mythology tend to be evil and to eat people, so they are much closer to ogres than the giants from Norse mythology. Hmm.

 

[Choranzanus]

Well, yes, but that is really just a coincidence and good example of folk etymology. I mentioned that the word obr was used for Avars, but that was just to reinforce my point (and because it is kinda interesting). The word obr doesn't have any negative connotations it simply means giant. There is no obvious explanations how this word would have become French word Ogre. By the way giants are not exactly common in Slavic mythology, and what there are can be attributed to shared European origin, hence similar traits with ogres.

I take it you are a Slovak, which would explain Hungarian roots.

I am still looking if Hungarians used the word Ugri to describe themselves in their own language or they did this only in Latin documents.