Oh, hey. Updated Balor in Demonomicon

[Infiniti2000]

You... shall not... pass!

(That's the first thing I think of whenever Bal(r)o(g)rs come up.)

Funny. The first thing I think of is "Type VI."

 

[keterys]

I had one PC with just fire resist 5 who was really worried when he got grabbed by a Balor... and then discovered how low its damage was.

Yeah, resist 5 fire (and no lightning) cuts its damage down by about 1/4, to only ~23 damage per round (33 when bloodied)... which is pretty slow at that level. Resist just does _horrible_ things to too many monsters. Its death burst still likely hit the entire party for 10-30 damage each though, which is something

 

[MrMyth]

Yeah, resist 5 fire (and no lightning) cuts its damage down by about 1/4, to only ~23 damage per round (33 when bloodied)... which is pretty slow at that level. Resist just does _horrible_ things to too many monsters. Its death burst still likely hit the entire party for 10-30 damage each though, which is something

It's true. (And I actually boosted Death Burst to 10d10 already). The main problem was that because it was not too big a threat, they could ignore it while dealing with everything else, and thus the Death Burst was just some more damage to heal after the fight.

I mean, it isn't the worst-designed monster in MM1, but a lot of the enemies in the book really didn't take into account PC resistances, even small ones. I ran a fight with 3 Pit Fiends not long after this, and 4/5s of the party weren't too concerned - and the one PC without fire resist, without ever getting hit, was scorched and smoking on the ground, between the auras and exploding minions.

Now, higher damage attacks helps with that, but resistances remain really powerful, and really capable of trivializing epic monsters. Having on/off switches like that - where an ability is either overwhelming without it, or trivial with it - is something 4E has moved away from, but still not escaped completely.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You know, resistances were rarer in beta and they use to be a reshold:

resist 10: no damage if you are damaged for 9 or less damage, full damage after that.

There was a hread about how unrealistic this is for fire elementals, resistance was changed wo what it is now (at least my interpretations from the previews)
Maybe monster designers didn´t take it into account...

Good to hear that the damage is now 6d10, just a bit more scary and overall reducing boring fights...

 

[keterys]

Wow, never would have thought of that resistance method, but it actually would fix so many things.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Was quite elegant in my opinion, but was terribly bashed by the community her iirc...

another indicator that listening to the internet folk is a terrible idea for designers...

When essentals is out, i will have another look at the two wizard preview books...

 

[Aegeri]

This is the Balor I made for my epic tier game:

I think in the end he is probably doing around the same damage as the Demonomicon one, except that he's a solo and so has more powers in general. The main differences probably being soul eater (Demonomicon aura that replaces variable resistance) and balor fury (at-will close burst attack). His damage in game was excellent and he really firmly challenged a level 28 epic party just by himself.

I'm pleased to see that the numbers I made myself, align sort of with those published later when updated.

 

[Rex Blunder]

The new balor damage is exactly what I'd predict from their mm3 damage model.

I've calculated the new average monster at-will damage as an easy-to-remember 8+level. (brutes do 25% extra damage).

I'd expect a level 27 brute to do (8+27)*1.25=43.75 damage.

6d10+11 is 44 damage.

at blogofholding I put all the monster-generation numbers on a card suitable for carrying in your wallet:

For reference, I believe the MM1 at-will average damage formula was 8 + 1/2 level. That works out to 21 damage for level 27, which works out well because the MM1 Balor's Lightning Sword does 2d10+10, which works out to... 21!

 

[DMRob]

I Gotta say Aegeri, I really like that Balor better then the stock model, and stole him shamelessly for use in my epic game. the fight is still in progress as we ran short on time, but a few things came up I wanted to ask about. the stat card seems to be devoid of resistances, action points, and a bonus to saving throws. What values did you use for him?

Also, and this is a rules question, and more of a request on how you would have run it, he ended up dazed, and was hovering about 5 points above bloodied, and used his fireburst step power to end up amongst all the casters in my PCs, one of whom does auto damage in an aura, which tipped him over into bloodied, triggering his bloodied fury. both explosions occoured, and his daze was then gone. would you have gone and given him his standard and minor since he was no longer dazed? is there a rule about things like that I missed? just curious how you would have run it.

Anyhow, thanks for statting out a monster of a balor, I would love to see any other custom epic threats you have.

Rob

 

[Aegeri]

I Gotta say Aegeri, I really like that Balor better then the stock model, and stole him shamelessly for use in my epic game. the fight is still in progress as we ran short on time, but a few things came up I wanted to ask about. the stat card seems to be devoid of resistances, action points, and a bonus to saving throws. What values did you use for him?

Amazing, I completely forgot all of that information when I made that stat block and I thought I removed all errors! Anyway:

Resistances: He should have resist 30 to both fire and lightning. This isn't terribly important though. He doesn't have variable resistance like a normal daemon, he's replaced it with Soul Eater.
Immunities: He's immune to charm (which could have been pretty important).
Action Points: He has 2 action points like a normal solo, he gains a third when bloodied.
Saving throws: He has the normal +5 bonus to saving throws.

Also as an additional clarification, Conflagation of Doom is no action.

Also, and this is a rules question, and more of a request on how you would have run it, he ended up dazed, and was hovering about 5 points above bloodied, and used his fireburst step power to end up amongst all the casters in my PCs, one of whom does auto damage in an aura...

Is that on entering the aura? If it's on entering the aura I can totally see where this is going.

...which tipped him over into bloodied, triggering his bloodied fury. both explosions occoured, and his daze was then gone. would you have gone and given him his standard and minor since he was no longer dazed?

Yes. If you end a condition during your turn like dazed, you can take your turn as normal. For example if you have a daze (save ends) and dreadnought (defender PP) you can take 10 damage as a minor action, remove the daze and continue your turn as normal (gaining back your standard and move actions). In reality though, the point of the bloodied power isn't to be so offensively orientated and is designed to trigger outside of his turn - not during it.

On the other hand, Ter-Soth is an immensely destructive sort and the more around him to harm the better. Teleporting into a mass of squishy people like that is precisely the sort of thing he would do. The aura damaging him to trigger his bloodied effect would just be a pleasant side effect - but not something that would probably be deliberate intent on his part.

Anyhow, thanks for statting out a monster of a balor, I would love to see any other custom epic threats you have.

I'm intending on posting a few solo monsters specifically in the MM maths thread just to show changes to maths/powers (and explain why various alterations were made).