Oh the, ECL, madness!

[Fallen_Lord]

I was just wondering what peoples opinions on ECL's were. Are the increased stats, abilities etc worth it or is being 1-3 levels behind the rest of the party to much of an encumbrance?

Thanks for the input ahead of time.
<Edited because i can't spell or type>

 

[Falcon of Lugh]

Having played a Half-Celestial and an Aasimar on two different occasions, I would have to say it's worth it all. Sure, I was behind the other players in levels because of my choices. However, by the time I got on a roll with each of those characters, I was above and beyond the other players in terms of stats.
Give a little, get a little. Give a lot, get a lot.
It's worth it in end if your game will be able to accomodate your character.

 

[Fenes 2]

Do not forget that you are not really that behind another character. A +2 to strength is almost an effective level when it comes to BAB. +2 to charisma means an effective level when social skills are concerned and so on. Add spell-like abilities and immunities, and you are pretty much set.

IMHO, ECL is a good way to balance special characters. Another option I have considered (due to a player that hates ECL since he considers level THE measure of power in a party) is to balance it otherwise. i.e., if a player wants to play an aasimar without sacrificing a level then the rest of the ECL-0 PCs get 4 stat points to spend (within racial limits). Maybe an extra feat could take care of resistances or immunities and so on.

I still remain in favor of ECL though.

 

[Ezrael]

I personally experience ECL all the time, since I'm playing a Lizardfolk monk, and so far, the Armor Class benefits alone have made it worth it. I'm wearing rags and I have an AC 20.

However, since there's another thread on the board discussing the EQ RPG, I feel like I might as well mention how that game handles powerful PC races, namely by penalizing them on earned XP. So if you wanted to play an Ogre PC in EQ Pen and Paper, you'd start at 1st level just like everyone else, and then progress more slowly due to the XP penalty. I prefer ECL, but it's an option that's available if you want to use it.

 

[novyet]

Having played a tiefling for awhile, I too can attest that it is indeed worthwhile, the loss in level is compensated by the special abilities and immunities. YMMV though

 

[Fallen_Lord]

I should have mentioned this in my original post but, my reason for asking is when and lvl mod 1 or greater spell caster is put against spell caster with no lvl mod of the same ECL they seem to be significantly handycaped in terms of not only number of spells but lvl of spell they can access. This is compounded when the bonus they get to make the ECL mod nessesary isnt in their primary spellcasting stat.

 

[Garmorn]

I should have mentioned this in my original post but, my reason for asking is when and lvl mod 1 or greater spell caster is put against spell caster with no lvl mod of the same ECL they seem to be significantly handycaped in terms of not only number of spells but lvl of spell they can access. This is compounded when the bonus they get to make the ECL mod nessesary isnt in their primary spellcasting stat.

I have two players that like ECL+ races and being spell casters. The effect is the same as if they had taken (a) level(s) in a combat or NPC class before starting that actual effect veries from race to race. Some like the Asmair enhance some classes more then others. Asmair bonus and special ablities are great for a paladin, nice for a cleric or druid but almost wasted on a wizard.

 

[Drawmack]

I find the xp penalty interesting maybe you could mix the two. Take xp/y where y = ECL - CL +1 and y > 1. That would also make them increase and a proportinatly decreasing rate until they got to the level equal to their ECL.

Here is the leveling chart for an ECL 5 PC using this method compared with the standard leveling chart from the PHB.

[color=white]
Level  ECL 0  ECL 5    Formula
====   ====   ====     ======
1      0     0
2      1000   5000     xp/.2
3      3000   13000    xp/.25 + xp needed for previous levels
4      6000   22090    xp/.33 + xp needed for previous levels
5      10000  30090    xp/.5 + xp needed for prefious levels
6      15000  35090    standard increase
7      21000  41090    standard increase
8      28000  48090    standard increase
9      36000  56090    standard increase
10     45000  64090    standard increase
[/color]

So this would mean that the party would be just over three levels ahead of an ECL 5 character. Hmm might need a little work but it's a good start.

 

[Psion]

I think it is a worthwhile method...

however

I think that some people underestimate the advantages that come with a level and assign ECLs way too high. This is especially true of the preview ECLs in the dragon. A mind flayer an 18th level character? I think not!

 

[Drawmack]

The problem comes in the fact that people seem to claculate CR and ECL by different standards. The way that I see it is that CR = the level of a party of four that this creature can take 20% of the resources from.

This means that a CR 4 should take 20% of the resources from a party of four fourth level characters.

Since each character holds 25% of the resources of the party this means that this monster can take 95% of the resources of any given individual in that party. This however does not mean that this creature is only 95% as stong as any member because he can take the punishment from the entire party while dealin out this damage. So I would say that if you take CR * 5 (cause 5 * 20 = 100) you get the ECL of a monster. The core books do not use this philosophy.

[color=white]
race     CR  ECL
====     ==  ===
Elf      1/2 1
Human    NA  1
Half-Elf 1/2 1
Half-Orc 1/2 1
Halfling 1/2 1
Gnome    1/2 1
[/color]

so it appears that ECL = CR * 2, but this does not seem to make any sense. Going by this ration a 20th level wizard is equal to a young adult green dragon.
Take a look at the stats on this monster:
Hit Dice: 17d12 + 108
AC: 25
BaB: +22
Fort/Ref/Will: +14, +10, +12
10d6 breath weapon, Fear DC 20, SR 19, DR 5/+1, Caster level is 3rd.

This is not equivocal to a 20th level human fighter, however using my method of CR * 5 this nasty becomes a ECL of 60 (50 for the dragon and 10 for the character levels). That sounds about right ro me.

I like the idea of ECL. However I find the implementation lacking. Since CR is the amount of damage that a creature can to do a party and ECL is the amount of levels a character needs to equal a monster then I feel that there should be a formula directly relating the two and they should be dependent on one another.