Pathfinder 1E Olympian Gods... suggestions welcome

[wlmartin]

Is Hercules/Herakles going to be ascended to Olympus in your Campaign, or is a wandering Hero with Mythic ranks? Or is he even born yet?

Is Prometheus still bound and serving Titan pate' to an eagle?

Will the city of Troy exist?

Its Herakles for Greek Mythology, Hercules is a bastardization of the greek term and Herakles basically means the enemy/bane of Hera since Herakles was hated by Hera (his step-mother and Aunt).. the whole story of Herakles is him fighting against the demanding will of Hera after she killed his family and forced him to endure the trials....

Its using the spirit of the Olympians but not holding dead true to the myths... there are facets to the mythology that wouldn't work in a D&D type campaign that I would have to fudge.

The main concern is getting a Pantheon that is vibrant and people can identify with. I thought about going down the Norse God route and whilst that has a lot of identifiable names and even some workable parallels (different worlds, different planes, different races etc), they are mostly made popular through the modern-day Thor comics/films.

My principle concern is that I find the gods of Pathfinder a bit crap.
I don't really like what WOTC did to the gods structure from AD&D 2E to 3/3,5 so i dont want to use that really

The idea will be recognizable Gods, applied to PF mechanics (domains, powers) and have some good politics built in.
The typical politics will be present, Zeus is all-father, his siblings and children are the main Pantheon and there will be the few hangers-on getting involved perhaps in more of a mystery/cult mechanic.

I will need to align them to the typical D&D alignment spectrum to create some mechanic friendly competition between the Gods.


The Campaign is 100% homebrew so i have no issues with changing things to fit my way of doing things.... but am not looking to reinvent the wheel in regards to expectaions about the Gods (Ares is still the God or war)

 

[gamerprinter]

You could Romanize it for some variety, as in Jupiter instead of Zeus and Mars instead of Ares, etc...

 

[Greenfield]

We just completed a Grecco/Roman campaign in 3.5. The 3.0 Deities and Demigods includes the Greek/Roman deities, but the list is incomplete. It turns out there were a LOT of Greek/Roman gods.

Rather than dealing with demons and devils, consider realigning them as various forms of Titan spawn, thus casting the Titan as the "Ones cast out", and leaving Judea/Christian references completely behind.

There is no Hell, only Tartarus

TSR produced a number of sourcebooks for the ancient world for 1st/2nd Edition. One was the Golden Age of Greece, another was the Celts, and I believe there was a Vikings one as well. You can find them on line relatively cheap. They won't help with the Deities part, but may give you some inspirations in other areas.

One house rule we used in our campaign was that Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection etc. weren't in the game world. Instead the PCs had to venture down to the Underworld/Land of the Dead and retrieve the fallen one's soul, then make their way back. Plane Shift etc could get you to the gates quickly enough, but if you tried to use them to leave the dead person's spirit came back simply as a spirit. They had to walk the road back to fully return to life.

You might keep the spells, at least in name, but have them send the PCs, physically or in spirit, on such a quest. Also there were some places believed to be gates to the underworld. The famous pass at Thermopylae was such a place. The name literally means "Hot Gates", as there are volcanic vents there. There were a few others as well.

We did this for a number of reasons, not the least of which was that raising the dead simply wasn't part of the mythology. Trips to the underworld were.

 

[Umbran]

LOL at Eris.

Hail Eris. All hail Discordia.

Well the Greek gods did ban together to defeat the Titans

Admittedly, this was because Cronus had *eaten* them at birth. But, once Cronus and the Cronies were dealt with, the gods set about squabbling - destroying human lives and cities in the process. Their conflict wasnt' about civilization vs destruction. It was powerful individuals, vengeance, jealousy, and family squabbles.

So, kind of hard to draw a moral distinction between the Greek gods and the prior titans. They all behave... poorly

Which isn't to say you can't rewrite all that. Just noting how "the gods" aren't really a unified whole of one purpose in the myths. They don't need any lingering Titans to have drama!

 

[Greenfield]

At one point in our campaign the characters were sent on a mission by the Gatekeepers to the various Lands of the Dead (one per pantheon). We were to spread the word about the Land of the Dead and the afterlife to the nation where they didn't believe it it: China.

When explaining this to the Chinese monks (we were trying to find a way to do it without breaking any local laws), they were in shock at the tales of the gods. They asked, "Are your gods children, that they are so petty and cruel?"

And we had to answer "Well, yes. Aren't yours?"

Hilarious moment as our characters stood there kind of expecting to be struck down any moment. We *knew* the gods were watching us at that moment. We were on their mission.

 

[mr_outsidevoice]

Well, the 12 core of the Pantheon should be used

Zeus Law, Weather, Air, Nobility, Good(?)
Hera Law, Nobility, Charm, Community, Protection
Poseidon Water, Earth, Destruction, Chaos, Animal
Hades Law, Earth, Death, Darkness, Repose
Demeter Earth, Plant, Good, Weather, Charm
Hestia Community, Good, Healing, Protection, Fire
Apollo Sun, Knowledge, Healing, Glory, Good
Artemis Darkness, Animal, Chaos, War, Good
Aphrodite Charm, Good, Community, Healing, Chaos
Hephaestus Artifice, Fire, Earth, Law, Strength
Ares War, Strength, Destruction, Glory, Chaos
Hermes Travel, Trickery, Magic, Luck, Good
Athena Law, Nobility, War, Knowledge, Protection

Then a smattering of the others
Hecate Magic, Rune, Darkness, Evil
Eris Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Luck, Trickery
The Muses Charm, Good, Travel, Artifice
Nike War, Glory, Good, Luck
Prometheus Trickery, Fire, Community, Knowledge, Good
Pan Travel, Luck, Trickery, Charm, Animal

Sub-domains can also apply.

You could have so each of the Core Olympians has a City-State dedicated to them and that is where the political maneuverings occur between the gods.

 

[wlmartin]

Well, the 12 core of the Pantheon should be used

Zeus Law, Weather, Air, Nobility, Good(?)
Hera Law, Nobility, Charm, Community, Protection
Poseidon Water, Earth, Destruction, Chaos, Animal
Hades Law, Earth, Death, Darkness, Repose
Demeter Earth, Plant, Good, Weather, Charm
Hestia Community, Good, Healing, Protection, Fire
Apollo Sun, Knowledge, Healing, Glory, Good
Artemis Darkness, Animal, Chaos, War, Good
Aphrodite Charm, Good, Community, Healing, Chaos
Hephaestus Artifice, Fire, Earth, Law, Strength
Ares War, Strength, Destruction, Glory, Chaos
Hermes Travel, Trickery, Magic, Luck, Good
Athena Law, Nobility, War, Knowledge, Protection

Then a smattering of the others
Hecate Magic, Rune, Darkness, Evil
Eris Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Luck, Trickery
The Muses Charm, Good, Travel, Artifice
Nike War, Glory, Good, Luck
Prometheus Trickery, Fire, Community, Knowledge, Good
Pan Travel, Luck, Trickery, Charm, Animal

Sub-domains can also apply.

You could have so each of the Core Olympians has a City-State dedicated to them and that is where the political maneuverings occur between the gods.

I was thinking the other night about splitting them off into their own mini realms and doing a great wheel setup but then it seemed to be contradictory since a lot of what makes the Olympian Gods distinct is that they are a family of gods, they are incestuous and back-bitting hateful of each other family, but a family still. Separating them into their own power centres and planes just felt disjointed.

So... i think i will have to go with a big heaven and hades setup, some elemental planes and functional planes (like ethereal / shadow) figured out but overall you are either a god and live in the heaven plane or you are a create of the underworld or dead and live in Hades.

So hades will function as the afterlive, not an typical hell-is-for-the-evil scenario, just a place for all the dead souls. Perhaps some get uplifted to Heaven, unsure yet

Thanks for all the advice so far

 

[wlmartin]

I have started fleshing things out, top down, starting with the planes and a little about life and death

I have tried to keep some of it core to the greek mythology but have started to mix things up a bit to fit a more D&D/PF feel

Please let me know your thoughts

(NOTE: I have not figured out how I am to deal with the elemental/shadow/ethereal planes yet)

// PLANES
-Olympia (highest plane, plane of the good gods)
-Elysium (connection to the Olympia, is the afterlife for those that achieved great good in life)
-Earth (where the mortals live out their lives)
-Judica (a temporary place where the recently dead go to be judged)
-The Underworld (where indifferent souls go, they live the rest of eternity out as placid, neutral souls floating in the afterlife)
-Tartarus (where the pure evil go and are imprisoned and tortured)
-Malinfinitum (the low plane, where the evil gods reign)

There are no lawful/chaotic neutral gods (except Gaia) and they all live in one of the two planes
This means that the typical Olympian structure may not work (Zeus and the olympians etc) since some gods that fit with the evil camp. I havent yet fleshed out specific gods and their alignment yet but the basics mean that none of them can be LN/N/CN

So in my campaign although LN and CN will exist, they aren't celebrated alignments since the social dynamic enforced by the gods encourage more of a Good vs Evil balance and you have to pick a side, either conciously or subsconciously

// LIFE & DEATH
All life is considered important whilst you are alive and once you are dead, you are seen as just an echo or memory. No progression happens once you die, you are frozen in the life you had at death and either spend eternity in The underworld, Tartarus or Elysium. This creates focus on living your life to the fullest but also gives a sense of remembrance and continuity after death, even if that continuity has no intelligent form.

When you die, you immediately enter the minor plane of Judica and are greeted by an agent of Elysium and Tartarus.
The first step is to see if you are sponsored by a chosen deity. If you are and they acknowledge this, you will be accepted into Elysium or Tartarus right there. For the pure evil that are sponsored by their evil deity, eternal life in Tartarus is one equivalent to the good have in Elysium and you aren't tortured like many others may be, more you are celebrated.

Once this has passed, you have to justify your achievement in life weighed in good or bad acts. This is in the form of a pair of scales where your good and bad acts are weighed up. You live through your entire life in real time (although it only lasts a fraction of a second) going through each action you take.

It is not just the intention of the act that is important but the weight of the act, how important the act was to the rest of the world.
Killing someone can be seen as an evil act but if you kill someone and the benefit of their death is less evil or even improved good, this can be seen in a different light.

Also killing a drifter and killing a king have different weights since one impacts no-one, one impacts an entire kingdom!

It is very possible to live a super good or super evil life but those actions have no impact on the world and don't count.

That being said, its often the case that good acts go unnoticed and bad acts are very much noticed. So you can be very good for your whole life and it still not count to getting you into Elysium but commit a single evil act and that be enough to send you to Tartarus. Evil acts typically weigh more than good acts, the difference being if the good acts have a stronger impact (and weight) to tip the scales.


A great deal of people just balance out, they may commit some small evil acts but in the grand scheme of things, their good acts balance out through a full life and they end up even. A smaller amount end up being punished in tartarus and a much much smaller amount end up in Elysium.

This mimicks the "path to the light side is hard, path to the dark side is easy" mantra from Star Wars, good acts have little impact and require more work to build up but a single bad act can get you!


If you come out even, you spend your life in The Underworld and are just an echo of yourself, you have no desires or wants and ego, you are simply a shadow of your former self.


If you come out strongly in evil or good then you are sent to Elysium or Tartarus.
You will then live your life in relative piece and harmony or pain and torment.

It is then encouraged for you to live a good life and be nice to people. The more good acts you make over evil ones, the greater chance you have of being sent to either of Elysium.


Of course if you are good but do so in the name of a deity, it can get you instant admission into your chosen deities afterlife plane. So you can be super evil and kill, mame and hurt everyone but if they vouch for you then you can get in. This creates a sort of goal for evil characters to aim for but the evil gods can be tricky, they can promise eternal life to their followers but may not give it to them

Similar for good deities, they may promise entry into Elysium and whilst not wanting to trick you (like the evil gods) they may simply believe you just didn't do enough or didn't quite meet the standard they set, and you can fall into a similar scenario however you could still justify your acts as worthwhile of admission during your trial.


Also, the judgement of the trial in Judica is not black or white, an action can seem pure evil but if you can build an argument strong enough to justify it as good (or just not as massivly evil) then you can limit the weight of that act. In reverse you can also big-up any good act to give that more weight if your argument appeals to the judges.



Some deities can often offer an Arbiter at Judica to those that follow them. They arent offering immediate entry into elysium this way but they can provide free legal for them during the trial and someone that can argue for them. This is typically arranged before you die and is usually recognition of your devotion to your god. It is basically the payback for your commitment to them, the most some people can hope for is to live their life and make prayer to their gods so they are awarded an Arbiter at their trial. Whilst many would desire immediate entry into heaven, they recognize that this is very difficult to achieve and the least that can hope for is the free legal assistance as return for their lifelong devotion.

Those who don't have an Arbiter must argue their own case and this is often seen as fools errand and just like the real life justice system, without approriate representation, you can end up missing out on heaven or end up in hell.

 

[wlmartin]

This is the background that I will keep in my head and let me direct the mechanics/storyline but the gods are not going to telegraph this information so most likely only the basic info is known

Gods have their own planes
There is a heaven and hell
Admission to either (as an honored party) is done by becoming a champion for your diety
Otherwise you have to undergo a trial for your life to get admission, otherwise ending up in the underworld
You can be granted assistance in your trial in return for devotion to your god

Thats about as much as would be publicly known, the rest is something that is privy to the gods themselves. The everyday person has no idea how the judgements are made until they are facing down the trial, all they know is that being good or bad results in a different afterlife and they should aim to be good or know that if they are evil, their short-lived mortal life of selfishness will be repaid in the afterlife.